Help! I've been set up!!!
from
Dustin Draper
Website:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21601876/
on
December 10, 2007
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My name is Dustin Draper. You might have heard about me from the news, because I was recently arrested by the D.N.R. From my perspective, I was setup by so-called conservation officers. A friend of mine, Ray, wanted some canebrakes, so I was helping him get them. I was contacted by a gentleman named James from Kentucky and he said he had some babies. I have not dealt in venomous for quite some time now. He told me he would sell the babies for $10.00 each. I called Ray and told him the price and he said okay.
I called James back and told him that Ray wanted the canebrakes. Then we discussed shipping. He said he wanted my address and stuff like that. I gave it to him. He then said Ray could pay later. He said he would ship them through the mail. I said that I really wasnt comfortable with him doing that. Then I told him I REALLY had to think about it, and that I would call him back. A day later I called him back and told him not to ship, that I was not going to get the snakes. He said it was too late, and that he had already shipped them.
I was upset, and I didnt know what to do. I had NOT given him any money, therefore I did NOT buy them. A few days later I got a call at 11:38 AM from the Post Office saying I had a package there, and for me to come get it. I went and got it because I obviously couldnt leave it there. I went home and was thinking of what I should do. I couldn't believe this guy did this. Ray was going to come get the snakes, but I didnt know when. Ten minutes after I got home the D.N.R walks right into my house and arrests me. They didn't even have a warrant! I did NOT let them in, they just came in. And come to find out, the guy that shipped the snakes was a D.N.R officer!! They then charged me with possession of an endangered species(3 Timbers). There are 6 charges in all.
The snakes were sold as canebrakes, not timbers. I didn't even buy the danged things actually. The DNR says we all are criminals, and I was treated worse that a drug dealer. I need support from the entire community on this. What they did was wrong, and I am not guilty.
And now I am facing 20 yrs, and will possibly do 10!!! Please call me, Dustin Draper, 765-228-4845 please call with advice and support.
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Help! I've been set up!!!
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by Chris_Harper on December 10, 2007
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The article says that you got arrested as soon as you got off of a bus. You say different. What's the deal?
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by DustinDraper on December 10, 2007
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DNR says we are ALL criminals, and we are treated as such. They also say I am a major player in the illegal sale and transport of exotic snakes, which is slander and defamation of character. I simply have a love for snakes like all of us do. And have tried for a very long time to get the permit here. Its all a conspiracy here in Indiana. Thats why only 5-10 people have a license here. And that is really pushing it. The Officer said he will never aprove anyone. Or I would already have the permit. As for your question, that is Bullcrap what they said. It did NOT happen the way they say it did. They totally set me up. And are discrediting me in all ways possible. I wouldnt answer any questions for them, not until my attorney was present. Terry Wilkins from Captive Born Reptiles is going to be at my trial and helping me. I need all of your support. It could make a big difference here in Indiana for all of us. Chris please call me at 765-228-4845
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by SCatheris on December 10, 2007
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“He wants to be cool and have venomous snakes,” said Sgt. Ed Rucker, a DNR conservation officer
well that kinda pissed me off.......a little on the stereotypical side eh?
other than that it says this isnt the first time.....................?????? I know the media isn't something you can take as completley true but I donno.
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by timberrattlesnake89 on December 10, 2007
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First off it seems that you will get a lot of the charges dropped. First of with out your permission or a search warrent DNR can not legally walk into your house. It seems if what you said was try for the most part you should be able to get a lot of the charges drop depending on what attorney you have.
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by tj on December 10, 2007
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"First of with out your permission or a search warrent DNR can not legally walk into your house."
If the DNR officials are anything like the DEC here in NY, yes they can walk into your house without a warrant. The DEC officers have more authority than any other official here, and they only need some semblance of probable cause...which they did.
What I don't get is why the friend couldn't get the snakes himself.
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by DustinDraper on December 10, 2007
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The D.N.R here in Indiana has top have a warrent like any other officer of the law. As far as Ray is concerned, James wasnt even supposed to ship the snakes period.
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by SCatheris on December 11, 2007
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I see what you're saying and I also see what the officials are saying . I think each party obviously didn't do something right
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by Rob_Carmichael on December 11, 2007
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Bottom line: ignorance of the law is no excuse. This entire story is fishy at best and there's no doubt that some key information is either being left out, or, not be completey on the up and up. I deal with DNR and conservation folks on a regular basis and it would be very atypical for them to go after someone without just cause. Although it sounds like the person getting nailed may truly not have understood the law, and, perhaps was just being a nice guy by helping his friends out, but I have got to believe there's more to it than what's being told. There's a lot of illegal activity taking place in the reptile trade and every time someone does something illegally, even if unkowingly, it just hurts everyone. Being a middle man won't help on this one....there was a purchase that took place and if you were buying the snakes for someone else, even if money wasn't exchanged yet, that will be seen as a violation in court.
My advice would be to not be a jerk to the DNR/conservation (bad mouthing on this forum is NOT A GOOD IDEA) and be cooperative during the investigation. Blasting the dnr on this forum has probably done far more harm than good so you are already behind the eight ball on this one.
Canebrakes = Timbers - that's something everyone should know and it does change from state to state depending on where you are at.
I hope it works out.
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by SCatheris on December 11, 2007
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well wouldn't the canebrake=timber thing kind of only apply to CBB snakes? Canebrakes are the coastal variation of timbers I thought? and Indiana isn't on the coast sooooo??
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by tj on December 11, 2007
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horridus=horridus
With the exception of Virginia, which may have changed, states don't recognize subs of horridus. A canebrake is still a timber, CB or not.
Not to mention, most wildlife officials are not trained enough to be able to tell the diff between subs.
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by AquaHerp on December 11, 2007
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The DNR officers in Indiana do not "approve", nor "disapprove" Class III permits. It's handled through a completely different department other than law enforcement. Getting a permit is not impossible, you just need to follow the written law and use the procedures in place.
DH
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by AquaHerp on December 11, 2007
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Crotalus horridus is protected in Indiana, as well as being considered a Class III animal. Shipping venomous snakes via mail is a violation...period. Does not matter what species. In as much as "canebrakes" vs. timbers, there is no scientific split for variations, clades, races et al currently on this species. Henceforth, timbers are considered a "protected" animal in Indiana regardless of thier origin.
DH
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by SouthernWolf on December 11, 2007
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It has been proven thru DNA testing that the Timber and Canebrake are the same animal.... What we call a Canebrake is more of a color morph....not a subspecies.
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by Buzztail1 on December 13, 2007
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Posession of an illegal cobra (cobra without a permit) in August.
Attempting to sell an undercover officer an Eastern Diamondback in November.
"The DNR said Draper is a known buyer and broker of venomous snakes."
The article doesn't say that he was arrested when he got off the bus. It says that they were waiting when he got off the bus. Given his prior arrests, it makes sense that they staked out his house, watched him get off the bus, and walked in and arrested him in his residence.
It doesn't say that they charged him with illegal shipping through the US Mail. That charge he might be able to beat. It says he is charged with transporting without a permit (which he did on a bus) and possession of an endangered species (which he did possess). It also says that he has never applied for a permit. You have got to keep copies of every scrap of paper that you use in dealings with the government. Bureaucracy tends to lose things like permit applications at incredibly inconvenient times.
Given previous run-ins with the law and the obvious knowlege that having these snakes was illegal, I just don't see "set-up" here. I have posted here many many times about doing business with people that you don't know. I have also posted about being involved in illegal activity. It doesn't matter if you agree with the laws. Break them and you suffer the consequences.
For future reference, if the post office calls you and tells you that a package, which you didn't order, containing something illegal, is waiting for you at the post office - tell them that you didn't order it and that they should send it back. Or better yet, report the person that sent it to you right then and there to the post office!
I agree with Chris - he will need a good lawyer.
R/
Karl
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by Chance on December 13, 2007
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This is kind of funny, and kind of sad. This guy was in contact with me quite a bit late this summer trying to obtain some elapids I was selling. He assured me they were legal where he lived. Fortunately for me, he was never able to put together the money and get my snakes. He did, however, get into contact with an acquaintance of mine and bought a cobra from him. This was the snake with which he was caught in August. The story was all messed up and I won't try to relate hearsay here, but he ended up being arrested and the snake was probably put down. Unfortunately for my acquaintance, the snake had been shipped through a ground carrier, so that brought up other issues.
The point is, his pleas for help are pitiful. He knowingly and in possession of his full faculties (?) bought and had shipped to him some protected venomous snakes AFTER the fact that he'd already been arrested once. Of course the DNR is going to keep an eye on you after that! Not a very smart move.
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I hardly take what I read at face value, but
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by AzAtrox on December 13, 2007
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If indeed you did not wish to take delivery of the package, why did you? If your primary concern was to get the snakes out of the Post Office, why not just tell the Post Office that you never authorized this shipment, and instruct them to return it to the sender? What were you going to do with the package had this not been a sting? Return it to the sender yourself? I don't know you, but it sounds as if your friend might have been the proud new owner of a few timbers. I guess I'm just having a little difficulty understanding where picking up a package that you didn't want because "you couldn't leave it there" becomes a valid defense for the very act of picking up the package...can you explain this?
The fact that no money changed hands is irrelevant for both the possession and transport charges.
I'm sure you can understand why some here might be a bit skeptical regarding the whole "set up" scenario...If you knew that horridus was prohibited in Indiana, why in the world would you agree to put your proverbial "neck on the chopping block" in order to aid a friend in the acquisition of such? How much responsibility is this friend assuming at this point? Is he contacting the DNR and stating that you were acting on his behalf? I doubt it...in my mind, a true friend would never knowingly put you in that position to begin with...
As you can probably tell, I have serious doubts as to the veracity of the "set up". From the story and your own admissions, you knowingly took possession of a container containing prohibited animals. In light of past conduct, I have difficulty extending leniency or the "benefit of the doubt" in this case.
I doubt that the entire case has been heard here...regardless, I'll follow suit with other posters and recommend that you retain excellent legal counsel in your defense. Good luck.
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by Psammophis on December 14, 2007
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Mate, there are three sides to every story: yours, theirs and the truth. As stated, there are too many holes in your story.
Get a good lawyer.
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by SerpenXotics on December 15, 2007
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I have to agree with everyone here and I think chance is on to something. I have a close friend who works for our own SCDNR, he has been a friend for years and typically DNR does not try to set anyone up unless they have reason to. This may not be my place to say but it sounds to me like you gave DNR a reason to investigate further.it also sounds to me as if you fell into the "set up". and with the timber vs canebrake issue it's still horridus I bet good money coastal aka canebrake rattlesnake and timbers are all horridus in the eye of the law. I am not sure but don't they consider cali kings illegal in GA because they are still in the same genus as eastern species.
anyway peace
Joe Lesh
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by ALA_snake33 on December 16, 2007
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I know that a lot of you will damn me for saying this, but Rob Carmicheal has not had to deal with some of the “Good Old Boys” in this country that will do anything to make a name for their selves. Yes, I am talking about some of our “Finest Law Enforcement Officers”. Guys that you think you can trust, but will stick a knife in your back anytime they can, especially if it will benefit them in some way. If you are so ignorant as to not see this, it means they have already done the job on you. Watch these CSI stories like Criminal Case Files, Cold Case Files and other Law Related Shows that show real Cases. It is totally apparent to anyone with sense to see it that the Judicial System in the Country needs a full overhaul and until we put a damn stop to it, it will keep going.
To make a long story short, open you eyes, they are doing what they damn well please.
Yes, I will ketch “Heat” for this, but I really don’t give a “Flying Hoot”.
I know I don’t post much anymore because its not worth it to do so, but I do not understand the trust for DNR that is so apparent on here, it makes no sense to me.
Be Safe Ya’ll, Happy Herping : Wally
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by Buzztail1 on December 16, 2007
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Wally,
Whether or not Rob, or I, or anyone else, has had to deal with Law Enforcement Officers that you can't "trust" has nothing to do with this thread.
The fact of the matter is that if they come barging into your home without a warrant and YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING ILLEGAL you can sue them back to the Stone Age. BUT, if you are breaking the law, then no-one wants to side with you because then you are sympathizing with someone who was breaking the law.
Of course there is corruption. There is NO SUCH THING as perfection. I would recommend an extended stay in most any other country (other than Canada or England) to build a personal appreciation for how good it really is here.
As for putting a stop to LEOs doing what they darn well please and a full overhaul of the US judicial system, that will have to be worked on by people who haven't gotten a record for being outside of the legal system. NCARK is doing a pretty good job at keeping the laws from being passed. But the people who come here and want support because they got caught breaking a law that they didn't agree with are just in the wrong place.
Sorry if you feel that isn't fair.
Some of us are trying to change the laws without breaking them first.
My "eyes are open". Is this "heat"? I would like to think not. I just wanted to explain why everyone is not up in arms about the actions of LEOs arresting people who are breaking the law.
R/
Karl
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by tj on December 16, 2007
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Well said, Karl. Wally, I don't think you need to worry about anyone giving you any heat about your comments. I don't think anyone is really going to contend with your logic.
I think Dustin should forget about getting a good lawyer and represent himself. He can use the CSI or Cold Case Files defense.
I was framed your honor, haven't you ever seen one of those real life cases like on CSI? LOL!
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by AquaHerp on December 17, 2007
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Wally,
I can't speak for every state here, yet I can for Indiana. I have dealt extensively with the IDNR for many years on a variety of topics including drafting and retooling wildlife laws and statutes (herp law included). I have had nothing but positive experiences with the officers and representatives of the law enforcement and permit departments over my 20-some years of interaction with them.
Is it easy and fast to get a permit there? No, it isn't and I will admit a bit frustrating at times, but it can be done. Is every officer super-duper friendly and enthusiastic about herps? No. Is every herper on the up and up and keeping these animals in a responsible manner and being mature and safeguarding themselves and the general public with their practices? No. It's not a perfect system...not a perfect world, but we need to work within the confines of what we have.
DH
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by ALA_snake33 on December 19, 2007
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TJ, Karl and Doug: In the following lines, I am about to quote a Game Warden from here in Limestone County, AL. These are the exact words that the man said to me.
It goes as follows: Wally, you can talk to the Sheriffs in the County you live in, maybe they can give you the Permit to Keep Exotics that your looking for.
Now: Let me clarify something here. In the State of AL you can not Keep, Transport, or Offer to Sale any Venomous Reptiles that are not native to the State (what so ever). Yet this officer told me that I could get a Keepers Permit from a County Official that would never stand in Court.
This being said, don’t you think this could be called “Entrapment”. Imagine this situation: John Doe Herp Keeper goes to his local Sherif and ask him for a Permit. Well, the Officer says “Yeah Why Not” well John Doe goes home Buys himself a Puffy, Gabby, and a few other chosen Species that he really loves. Then 6 Months to a Year later Mr. DNR comes knocking at the door. Well I don’t have to tell the rest of the story, now do I.
Yeah it happens more damn often then you think, it happened in this area not 8 Months ago.
I Rest My Case.
Be Safe Ya’ll, Happy Herping : Wally
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by AzAtrox on December 19, 2007
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entrapment n. in criminal law, the act of law enforcement officers or government agents to induce or encourage a person to commit a crime when the potential criminal expresses a desire not to go ahead.
Copyright © 1981-2005 by Gerald N. Hill and Kathleen T. Hill. All Right reserved.
"This being said, don’t you think this could be called “Entrapment”. Imagine this situation: John Doe Herp Keeper goes to his local Sherif and ask him for a Permit. Well, the Officer says “Yeah Why Not” well John Doe goes home Buys himself a Puffy, Gabby, and a few other chosen Species that he really loves. Then 6 Months to a Year later Mr. DNR comes knocking at the door. Well I don’t have to tell the rest of the story, now do I."
Your scenario would not fit the legal definition of entrapment. In your scenario, at no time does law enforcement approach the individual regarding the purchase of illegal animals. Instead, the imaginary law breaker approaches LE with a request. Thus far, LE has not attempted to compel or persuade the person to engage in any illegality whatsoever.
So does this guy walk out with a permit in hand, or simply an assurance from the Sherriff that such a permit is possible? If indeed the Sherriff has statutory authority to issue such permits and gives one to our imaginary friend, (and only THEN does the person purchase the animals), no criminal violation has occurred.
If on the other hand, the Sherriff gives him the impression that such a permit is possible and THEN he goes out and buys a bunch of illegal animals, a criminal violation has occurred. This is because our imaginary friend has purchased illegal animals with knowledge that a) he had no permit at the time of purchase and b) he knew that possession and purchsing of said animals was illegal without such a permit. Whatever the Sherriff informs him at that point is irrelevant...Because LE did not compel this guy to commit an illegal act, there is no entrapment...This guy committed an illegal act based upon inaccurate information provided to him by the Sherriff...However, it is HIS responsibility to know his state's wildlife laws, and ignorance of such is not a valid defense, regardless of what someone tells him...
So...entrapment doesn't work here...sorry
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by tj on December 19, 2007
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No, I wouldn't call that entrapment, nor would I call Dustin's case. More than likely, if the Sheriff signed any documented permit, it would stand up in court.
Even if it was wrong.
Dustin's case is not even close to that. He already had TWO priors and HAD POSTED TIMBER RATTLESNAKES FOR SALE ON A PUBLIC FORUM. It's pretty much case closed and ignorance is not going to work, especially when they know it isn't the case. Bottom line, he needs to take his licks and people need to realize that these forums are being monitored.
It's doubtful he'll do any time, which is a good thing, but the fines will be hefty.
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Another thing....
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by AzAtrox on December 19, 2007
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"It goes as follows: Wally, you can talk to the Sheriffs in the County you live in, maybe they can give you the Permit to Keep Exotics that your looking for.
Now: Let me clarify something here. In the State of AL you can not Keep, Transport, or Offer to Sale any Venomous Reptiles that are not native to the State (what so ever). Yet this officer told me that I could get a Keepers Permit from a County Official that would never stand in Court."
According to your post, the Game Warden did NOT tell you that you could get a permit to have illegal animals...What he said is: Go talk to your county sheriff and MAYBE they can give you a permit...
This would indicate that he is not familiar with what your sherriff can or can't do, but it does not constitute a "go ahead" from him...Rather, it is a redirection to acquire more information from a different source...nothing more. He's saying in effect: "I don't have the answer...maybe you can talk to your county sherriff to get the answer"...That's all he's saying....
Legally, such cannot be construed as a valid excuse for loading up, nor can one claim entrapment based upon what he said....
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RE: Another thing....
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by tj on December 19, 2007
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http://www.venomousreptiles.org/classifieds/results
Type in DustinDraper.
He stated in his article that he hasn't dealt in venomous in awhile, yet had horridus for sale at the same time he was busted. Still think he was framed?
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by Buzztail1 on December 19, 2007
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Wally,
It looks like quite a few other folks have said what I would have said in response to you had I not been at work.
A few things that they didn't say:
No matter who you deal with - GET IT IN WRITING.
If you have a permit from the Sheriff, that should help you immensely in court. If all you have is a promise of a permit - you jumped the gun by getting the snakes before the permit.
If you knew that keeping the snakes was not legal and you thought a permit from a local official was a loophole - sorry, it didn't work.
I have posted and posted about getting everything in writing. I tell people that they should write to the state home office of DNR/FWC/whatever their permitting agency is. File their responses as if you were going to use them as evidence in court - YOU MIGHT HAVE TO.
I maintain a Florida permit (I live in GA). I keep a copy in my wallet, a copy in my car, and a copy hanging on the wall in my herp room. The original along with all the other correspondence I have received from Florida FWCC (including copies of what I have sent them) is kept in a file for safe and easy reference.
The basics have not changed since I started writing on this site.
1. Find out the laws for your local area. The correct way to do this is to contact the MAIN OFFICE of your state's wildlife agency - NOT your local wildlife agent.
2. Follow the laws of the area that you live in - whether you agree with them or not.
3. If you don't like the laws where you live - (here you have two choices) a. Lobby to change those laws WHILE OBEYING THEM or b. move.
4. A third option of disobey the laws and hope that you don't get caught generally doesn't work out too well. Trying to find someone who may seem to have more authority (local sherrif) than the permit authorities (DNR) to say yes you can keep venomous snakes isn't going to end well. Trying to say "they tricked me into breaking a law that I already knew about" isn't going to end well. BREAKING THE LAW DOESN'T END WELL.
5. Posting on this website that you broke a law that you knew about and broke anyway and got caught and are looking for sympathy and support just doesn't work out too well either.
Just my opinions,
as valid or invalid as the next person's,
Karl
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So I went to....
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by AzAtrox on December 19, 2007
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the classifieds and typed in Dustin Draper as tj recommended....I don't know what Dustin's idea of "awhile" is, but I'm sure a reasonable person would assume that it means longer than 3-4 months...I suppose it's subjective...
Either way, if I was a LE agent and I was looking for a reason to sniff around Mr. Draper, I'd need look no further than the classifieds in this here website...
Mr. Draper, I'm afraid you gave LE all the PC they needed to start looking into your activities...Posting "wanted" and "for sale" ads for prohibited animals on a public forum is a sure fire way to get eyes pointed in your direction...but I suppose that's not subjective....
Good luck with the case. (I think you'll need it.)
-AzAtrox
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by agkistrodude on December 21, 2007
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You knew that picking up the snakes at the post office was illegal.You've been busted before.You said that he shipped them via U.S. mail even after you told him to hold off. Red flags should have been flying everywhere! I don't see any set-up at all, just a bad case of dumb-ass. MartyM
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by fizzbob7 on December 21, 2007
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for the record and in wally's defense, sheriffs have issued MANY permits to "legally" keep exotics in certain states. thing is, fish and game do NOT recognize them at all and that piece of paper is totally useless.
why is it useless? because it's totally invalid. do the sheriffs get in trouble over issuing a false document that you have to give them between $75 and $150 for?
no, they don't and implying any wrongdoing on their part gets you in MORE trouble. know those family photos in your photo album where a baby is playing in a bath tub of bubbles? those are considered child pornography. don't pay your fines and you are charged with it.
it's a lose, lose, lose situation. in some states, they (fish and game officers) may very well be worth their weight in gold, but in other states, people who keep snakes are godless freaks. the only good snake is a dead snake, and they'll tell you as much.
you are the enemy to them and nothing more.
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by frenchfry on December 27, 2007
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Simply stated: Ignorance is bliss, but ignorance is not an excuse, and hind sight is 20-20. Good luck.
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by 91C2 on December 30, 2007
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I would like to see a copy of the indictment showing the charges and accusation. The number is disconnected.
Dustin, if you read this, please show the indictment.It's easier to help if we know the accusations
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by DustinDraper on December 30, 2007
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The fact of the matter here is this. Yeah I messed up by picking up the package. I was scared to say the least. I had been out of the snake business since the last incident. I thought before that I could have the snakes and just "hide out" until I could move. but this case is all messed up. I didnt want the snakes shipped and didnt know what to do when he said they were shipped. All I knew to do was pick them up and it didnt cross my mind to do anything else. I knew I was going to jail..... bottom line. I believe what that undercover guy did was wrong. You guys might not believe me and thats ok. I am not perfect, and I love snakes just as much as you do. If you bash me for messing up and call me a liar for telling my side of the story then you are wrong for it. I would help anybody I could if they were in my position. Snake keepers not sticking together is why we all get ran over so much by the government. Thats why the laws are so f-ed up now. I just wanted to let you all know what happed. Some of you I thank for the advice. Others I am sad to say think they are better than everyone else because they dont have to deal with this stuff and dont have the slightest idea of how messed up it can get. Thanks everyone none the less.
Dustin
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by Buzztail1 on December 30, 2007
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Dustin,
Your situation is unfortunate.
Unfortunately, I am sure that there are quite a few people who find themselves in the position of "hiding out" because they know that they are keeping illegally.
That does not make the Law Enforcement Officers bad guys when they catch you.
While I can understand that you were scared and didn't know what to do, you also knew that you would take the fall if you picked them up and you did it anyway.
Just so you don't misunderstand my position on it, if someone tells me that they mailed me venomous snakes through the USPS, a Law Enforcement Officer will be there to pick up the snakes that were sent to me so that he can charge the correct person - the one who mailed them (there is nobody here that I am going to go to jail for)!
Nobody is perfect.
I don't think anybody has called you a liar although many disagree with your idea of being out of herps "for awhile." That's just differing opinions on the passage of time.
This one statement though:
"Snake keepers not sticking together is why we all get ran over so much by the government. Thats why the laws are so f-ed up now."
Sorry but I really disagree with that.
Breaking the law is why you got run over by "the government".
Because I choose not to break the law and keep illegally does not make me think that I am better than you. It does mean that I don't have DNR Officers waiting for me to get home or barging into my home to search for illegal animals. So, no, I "don't have to deal with this stuff" although I do have a pretty good "idea of how messed up it can get."
I have no idea how your case will wind up but I do wish you well. I think your article might have been better presented as a "Here's how I messed up - make sure you don't do the same thing." than "Help! I've been set up!!!" All you had to do was contact DNR and tell them that, against your wishes, someone illegally sent you snakes and they wouldn't have a case against you at all. You set yourself up.
Just my own opinions,
Karl
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by kacz on December 30, 2007
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Dustin, any sympathy I may have felt toward your situation (and it was very little) just flew out the window with you last entry. You stated, “I would help anybody I could if they were in my position. Snake keepers not sticking together is why we all get ran over so much by the government.” No Dustin, the reason the herping community is constantly under the gun is because scofflaws, such as you, are screwing it up for the rest of us. What you have done not only brings negative attention to an unpopular pastime, it paints us as reckless and having no regard for the rest of the community in which we live.
Of course you would help anyone else in your position. You just don’t get it! Why should those in the herping community jeopardize their precarious reputation by condoning or sympathizing with your flagrant multiple violations of existing laws? What kind of sympathy to us were you showing when you committed these acts for your own personal reasons? Did you consider how your actions were going to affect our hobby? What law enforcement did was not wrong. What they did was perform their job. You don’t have to like it. You don’t have to agree with it. But, that’s the way it is. You were self-absorbed enough to hand them their case on a silver platter.
In your profile, under advice to other keepers, you say “Keep your nose clean and continue to learn.” (Paraphrasing from memory). Who are you kidding? You have done neither. Your record of multiple violations attests to that. You have shot your own credibility in the foot.
While you throw in a gratuitous attempt to shoulder responsibility you continue to point your finger at law enforcement, and now at the rest of the herping community. For what reason should we support your egocentric view of the world, when you gave us no thought in committing these acts?
You created every act and decision, which has resulted in your considerable mess. Please stop trying to put the onus on others.
Paul M. Kaczmarczik
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by Chris_Harper on December 30, 2007
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Here are my thoughts on that concept. A friend once made the statement, "Right or wrong, Doug's family and we ought to stick by him."
The problem was, Doug was a paramedic who tested positive for cocaine, and I vehemently disagreed. My rebuttal was that "every man has to answer for his own actions".
We walk a precarious line as it is. And although I know that many of us fulfill a valuable role within society, I also realize that not everyone knows or even cares about that. So, I take the extra steps to make sure that those around me know that I am on the up and up, and I expect my compatriots to do the same.
Because of the dim light that the general public holds for venomous snakes and "snake people", we simply must be without reproach.
CH
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by atrox56 on January 2, 2008
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Dear Dustin:
I will make absolutely NO comment as to your guilt or innocence but I will coment on your actions as far as picking them up.
Had I been in your shoes I would have called the Post Office and advised them that some idiot was sending me what could turn out to be "Lethal Reptiles" via the U S Post! I have recieved damaged packages in the mail as most of us have! so by you knowing that there was at least a 1% chance of a postal employee getting bitten, it was you responsibility to notify them of the danger.
Had you done this the post office might have given you a medal and the DNR would have had Egg on thier face, if in fact they set you up. Hind sight is 20/20 and the law is the law, like it or not and I usually don't like it, but I have a spotless record for the past 38 years.
NEVER NEVER NEVER send a venomous animal with out the proper lable's and warning's and NEVER by the U S Post office. I hope you get out of this mess and for G-D's sake think before you give anyone your address.
Let us know how you are doing so some other person might learn from this mistake. Lots of luck!
Joel T. La Rocque
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by JN on January 2, 2008
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DNR is the only law enforcement agency that does not require any warrant to enter you residence. Second of all by law you do not have to pay for something all you have to do is say I want it! to be charged Trust me I know!!!!!!!!
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by xvenomx on January 3, 2008
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This guy's story is..... well, flawed. But nonetheless ,postal carriers are quite violent with packages, the animals, "endangered animals" could have died had they been returned.Personally I couldn't have sent them back, not only due to the legality of it, but also because of the cruelty of it. Now why would a department that is supposed to be protecting these endangered species shipping them through the mail in the first place ?!!! Its because they could give a RATS ASS about the animals!!!!! Its all about the money they will collect in fines,fees ,etc. I know! And yeah all of you who know of me can talk as much smack as you want, It doesn't hurt. If this guy was trying to sell illegal animals,endangered animals, I have no sympathy for him. If he just didn't want the snakes to die in a freaking box in the post office,my sympathies. But I think this dude was selling. He knew he wasn't supposed to, and didn't care,about the animals OR the consequences.
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by JungleHabitats on January 4, 2008
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Regardless of Dustin's part of this should charges not be filed against the DNR Officer and the department themselves for violation of the Lacy Act? I cant remember if the box was labeled or not but regardless this government / state official violated a federal law no matter what they do to dustin the same should be done against them should it not ? two wrongs dont make anything right
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by kacz on January 4, 2008
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That is a real good question! Past attempts to read the Lacey Act have left me flummoxed. Unless you have the time and inclination to cross reference all of the exceptions, and maintain a hierarchy of relevant statutes, it is almost impossible to form a valid understanding of the nuances of the law (at least for me). What does become evident is that there may be a lot of loopholes available to wildlife authorities. For example, they may be able to request special dispensation from the federal authorities. They can use animals that have been certified as being bred in captivity, and thus may be able to sidestep certain statutes. Even if they were to violate the text of the act the interpretation of its exact meaning would be up to a federal court to decide. This would require a countersuit or appeal and could be a moot point in determining the immediate guilt or innocence of a defendant like Dustin. Note that I am not a lawyer, and that I have used such indefinite terms as “may” and “could”. Are there any experienced persons out there that can shed some light on this?
Paul M. Kaczmarczik
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by tj on January 6, 2008
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I'm going to say no, it won't be a violation of the Lacey act. Just like an undercover officer selling crack to someone. Will he be charged with selling crack? No. He was being watched for a long time, and made it easy for them to bust him. And, chances are, those snakes were never shipped from anywhere and the post office knew about the sting.
Everyone seems to be pointing fingers at the DNR and what they did wrong. Fact of the matter is that they did their jobs, and had an easy time doing it. Period.
If someone is dumb enough to sell protected animals, buy protected animals, they're going to get caught. Especially when they are dumb enough to post those animals for sale on internet classified's where we know they are being watched. I don't understand where the disconnect is here.
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by DustinDraper on January 14, 2008
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The fact of the matter here is that I DID NOT post up the snakes for sale. I got messed up by the DNR. I see that some of you support me a bit and some dont. For some of you that support me I thank you. And for those that dont, I understand your possition as well.
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by DustinDraper on January 14, 2008
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kacz, I know that I messed up and was ignorant. You dont have to bash me! I did wrong yes, but they also did wrong. If you were told you could never have a permit, not because you did anything wrong but because the officer inspecting your place didnt want you to have one what would you do? This happened 4 times. Would you just slouch off and say ohwell? And just let him have his way ONCE AGAIN? Or would you continue your love for the hobby? I deserve respect as much as you do. You are obviously more fortunate than those of us here in Indiana.
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by frenchfry on January 14, 2008
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Dustin, well I can say that I understand your frustration about Indiana laws, as I too reside there. However, I must disagree with you in the way you decided to be "above the law." Just because you WANT to possess protected species does not mean the government NEEDS to let you. It does suck, BAD, but there are plenty of other interesting, beautiful and profitable herps avaliable that we Hoosiers are able to lawfully own. I understand that it may be extreme to some, but I know of a few individuals who opted to move to neighboring states in order to be able to keep species protected by Indiana. And please remember that the DNR is partially responsible for quite a few species of animals improvment in the wild, ex: American Alligator. The laws here are strict, but they do have their purpose. It will do no good to hold a grudge against them, their just trying to protect the animlas we all love so much. And yes, they do require money to do so, hence stings such as this one. I truly hope the best for you man. Good Luck!
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by Buzztail1 on January 14, 2008
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Sorry, Dustin, but this time you are flat out wrong.
If the law enforcement officer tells you FOUR TIMES that you can't do something and you decide to do it anyway? THAT DOES NOT DESERVE RESPECT!
What would I do, if some uppity DNR agent told me I couldn't keep some of the snakes I love? Well guess what! I don't keep them! Welcome to Georgia!
If I HAD TO HAVE them enough to break the law - then I would have to have them bad enough to move to Florida where it would be legal.
You cannot say that you are as respectable as the hundreds/thousands of keepers who are striving to do things within the limits of the law. You knew the law - didn't agree with the law - chose to break it anyway - and got caught.
Good luck with your case - but saying that you are the same as the rest of us is just not true.
R/
Karl
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by tj on January 15, 2008
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Dustin, the proof is in the pudding. Do a simple for your name here and you will see a post in the classified's for timber rattlesnakes THAT YOU POSTED.
It's hard to give you the benefit of the doubt and support you when it's blatantly obvious you knew what you were doing.
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by DustinDraper on January 16, 2008
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I tried to explain myself the best I could. I did everything I was supposed to do to get the permit. They still wouldnt doi it. It was up to snuff. no reason to be denied my permit.. the matter is we were both wrong.
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by bassteck76 on February 2, 2008
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One more reason why you dont do "buddy" deals with animals like this.
I hope all gets settled for you and the DNR. However this is a risk taken when dealing with any animal covered by law. Venomous or not. Venomous dealings always spark interest of officials do to the danger involved in keeping and/or transporting.
I personally havent read the official paperwork here so have no comment one side or another.....just get an attorney and do what you need to do to make this right.
Stuff like this is what gets the state and federal agencies all in an uproar and brings down issues for all involved in any animal dealings.
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by bigjon122584 on February 3, 2008
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What Dustin hasn't made clear here is that he lives in Indiana where possesion of Venomous snakes of any kind is Illegal. I also am aware of a previous venomous snake conviction of his. He is by far the last person I would consider credible and I think it is a very bad idea for any one here to back him. People like Dustin who know the local laws and ignore them any way should be put in jail. This kind of behavior looks bad on the entire community and will eventually lead to a federal ban.
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by ExoticTails on February 3, 2008
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i live in Indiana but i do everything legal unlike others i want to keep hots but how do i get my permit? where do you guys apply?
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by CanadianSnakeMan on February 14, 2008
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Hey Dusatin, I hope this helps:
I don't quite know how the legal system is in the states, but I know that it is fairly similar to our system in Cnanda and the DNR screwed up for the following reasons
1. If the officer did in fact contact you first and, without you asking, offered to sell you the snakes, then that falls under 'entrappment'. this basically means that an officer of the law can not lead you into a criminal act. You must be the one with the intnet to commit the crime.
2. The warrant is a must-have (again, I'm not too sure how things work down there)
3. If this 'James' guy shows up in court and admits that you told him the next day not to ship the snakes, then that may look favourable on your part.
Things that may hurt your case are:
1. Prior convictions and refusal to apply for a permit
2. It doesn't matter whether you paid the guy or not, trafficking is trafficking and posession is posession regardless of the price (if any)
3. The fact that you are making public statements INCLUDING THE ONE ON THIS PAGE can be used against you in court. If anyone were to see your article and present it in a courtroom, it could be considered an admission of guilt and screw up any chance of getting a deal.
I wish you the best and I suggest you consult a lawyer and remove your article from this site!!
Good Luck
Luke H.
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by redpython on February 23, 2008
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The whole story is fishy. He illegally had the snakes, which were endangered, and he also had no permit, which he knew he needed as well. He is in the wrong 100% and he knows it, no reason to play dumb.
Buuuuttt, let me tell you what the saddest part about the timber rattlesnake and indiana is. They are an endangered species on the state level, that is suppose to have all this protection. And they do on some extent,they have protection from people like Dustin or those who want to collect and keep them. However, they have no protection from the morons that kill them intentionally.
I know of several instances last year were timbers were killed intentionally and ZERO punishment or fine took place.
Now this could be the biggest in-justice of all, and not to people like Dustin, but to the timber rattlesnake. The state of indiana can do all of it's studies it wants, and it can arrest all of the people like dustin out there, but until the state grows some balls and punishes the people who needlessly kill these animals, i am not sure what the point of prosecuting anyone for illegally posessing these is.
Dustin, you were in a position that could really make a difference for the timber rattlesnake. Unfortanately it has turned into a circus and the rattlesnake has become a novelty.
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by Crazywolf on March 2, 2008
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boomslangandrew, i dont see my comment anywhere, not quite sure why you were able to see it but im not (its my first comment on this site)
thank you for replying.
i mean what legally on paper makes them endangered? and is it just in certain states?
i have quite a few friends in the southeast who find them in the wild or have some they keep.
but i mean if their so abundant in the wild, how are they endangered?
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by jtcbx on March 5, 2008
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I don't see my post either, nor do I see the answers to the questions that I had asked(?).
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by Chris_Harper on March 5, 2008
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I'm not sure which manager is deleting your posts, but when they see this they'll probably contact me and fill me in.
CH
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by DustinDraper on March 9, 2008
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As I have said in the past how things went down, I stand by it. But what I am doing now is keeping nothing till it all gets settled. I love snakes as much as anybody does. I have lost hope for ever getting my permit here and I face the reality of my errors daily. I apologize to all of you for being a hypocrite by telling people to get thier permit when I should have done it myself as well. Granted that I had continuously attempted and failed. that is still NO excuse for my actions and EVER talking to that man regardless if they were for me or not. I will say that i am sorry to you all. and hope that you dont think of me as a bad person. I will get my permit elsewhere soon enough. and hope that some of you will do business with me in the future. I know that alot of people dont trust me now. this i hope to change later on in life. thank you all for listening. The case is going good so far i believe.
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by Mantafish on March 31, 2008
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Bottom line. If you live in Indiana like I do, you may be able to get a class three if your lucky. On the other hand I can go sky diving, smoke 20 packs a day, buy a terrior and let it kill kids in the neighborhood and even drive my car to work eveyday with a bunch of impared drivers that can kill me at any time. Yet the state fears these animals out of complete ignorance and therfore people that really understand and are fascinated with these animals will be forced to procure them illegially. WTG!!! for the state in its efforts to preserve civil liberties and act in our best intrest. I am going home tonight to get drunk and smoke a pack of cigs and then go driving down the interstate until someone hits me and kills me.
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by poorindianasap on April 15, 2008
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this is my first post and I would like to say that I understand your frustration with the Indiana DNR. I to tried to get my permit (I had over 20 vens in the mid 90s) and was in my 3rd month of going through the process, I had the dnr come to my house to inspect my cages, had to notify the neighbors, telling them exactly what I was going to have and why I was wanting to keep them. the dnr guy signed my paperwork for my cages, etc, you have to go through a waiting period after notifying the neighbors.I was under the impression that eveything was going fine, then I was notified that the neighbors objected and then i was told that we had to have a town meeting to discuss eveything. that would of took me into my 4th month of crap. then after all that I finally figured out that when I read the law to the letter, the last thing it says is that a permit will be granted at the discretion of the head of the DNR. so basically if they don't want you having them or the neigbors objest or whatever, your screwed. If the laws were written that said you had to do these five things and you did them that would be great but I live in a state that is run by idiots that make the laws so they can manipulate you any way they want. I can own 10 loaded guns in my house and in my car with no trigger locks and not put in a safe for my kids to not blow their heads off, but I can't own a pitviper in a locked cage in a locked room in my locked house without the governmment up my A@# Do me a favor and get off this poor guys case, the DNR in this state will hang you if they find out your a venomous lover like I am. I have first hand knowledge of how to get screwed in this state
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by demonic_smurf_1 on April 24, 2008
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This is easy if owning venomous reptiles isn't legal in Indiana then DON'T OWN THEM. if your field herping or what ever and you run across one admire it from afar and if the Crotalus horridus is endangered there is a reason that law is there. like i live in South Carolina from everything i have ever studied there supposed to be all around here but there not in the fifteen years i have snake hunted i have never seen one. so that tells me that
there endangered so if i saw one would i catch it no i wouldn't now if they was just ever where then yeah i might take one. And see it's people like that,that makes it hard on every one else and makes us all look bad as a whole!!! i mean i feel for you dude doing time isn't cool but you just didn't keep your nose clean.
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by twiceshy on May 31, 2008
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just remember the punishment for perjury is apparently more than for what you are charged with good luck
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by agkistrodude on June 2, 2008
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I'm sure DNR didn't actually ship the snakes. If it was a set up, they just brought the package to the P.O. with the Postmasters knowledge and did the sting. And he fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
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by svsnakes on September 5, 2008
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Sorry, I didn't have time to read all the posts. I am in law enforcement, though not involved in any way with the enforcement of animal laws. If you think about this like he was ordering drugs from a cop rather than snakes, it should be viewed differently. I have been involved in investigations involving the transfer of contaband though the mail and we went into the house soon after the contraband was delivered. Sometimes we had a warrant and sometimes we didn't. The deal was that we knew what was in the package because we packed it. I know there are those of us that violate laws that we may think are unjust by keeping hots, but I don't think you can call "set-up" when you're caught.
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by LeviathanNI on December 26, 2008
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And another gravedig.. so appologies.. but what happened? Did he get his 10 years? Did he get away with it? Is he going to move State and try to get a permit that way (can you do that in the US if you have conviction?)
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by LeviathanNI on January 12, 2009
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Well if it is lesson learned, then it is worth it at the end.. good luck, and I know the law is different over there, but the law is the law, and when I was there living I always found the best approach was to work with those on the coal face.
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by jsrocket on May 15, 2009
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Mr. Draper, I'm glad you got off lightly as a fellow herper.
That said, what in the hell were you thinking? Your claim of not understanding the (legal lack of) difference between a canebrake and a timber could be written off to naivety.
But, the guy tells you he is going to ship venomous via USPS, and your response is, "I'll have to think about it."??? A normal response would be, "What are you, nuts?"
Jeez, dude, you're very lucky you didn't get spanked harder.
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RE: Help! I've been set up!!!
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by 4winds on July 22, 2009
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I have dealt with Dustin. I saw an advertisement on the forum and contacted him about pygmy rattlesnakes. He was looking for one, and I was as well. We talked and I ended up attempting to buy house spiders from him. My company uses large quantities for insecticide studies. So, I sent Dustin $40, half of the money up front for the spiders. He never delivered on the spiders. He definitely didn't give me my money back. I sure wish I'd have seen this article beforehand. His screen name at the time was "georgiaboy". He was in Arcadia Florida at the time of our dealings. He also had stated that he intended to move to Georgia. He obviously has numerous aliases on this website. I'd caution anyone against doing business with him. It may have only been $40 but it is the principle that bothers me.
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RE: Help! I've been set up!!!
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by 4winds on January 19, 2010
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Well here it is about 6 months later. Dustin still didn't provide restitution. I've finally thrown in the towel. He's changed his screen name several times. He is in Conyers, GA now. I'd advise anyone who has thought of dealing with him to stay away. He was recently incarcerated (by his own omission). A shady character all around. Won't be too long before he gets locked up again.
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Help! I've been set up!!!
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by Diane on March 22, 2011
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You could easily have just refused the package and asked the post office to ship it back. You could have explained what happened as well. Knowing these things only come through experience though, so I feel bad for you. I dont think someone who makes a mistake due to inexperience or bad judgement should be branded as a criminal.
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RE: Help! I've been set up!!!
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by marmar on July 17, 2011
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lesson well learned dont give anyone your address or any other personal information dont deal with venomous reptiles untill you have your permit, but it is illegal for any law enforcement to just come right on in with out a warrent.
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Help! I've been set up!!!
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by ksweet8249 on October 26, 2011
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I have a friend who went through something similar. A DNR "friend" of his bet him $500 that he couldn't be the first person to breed Eastern Massasaugas (since he was the first for banded rock and mottled rock rattlers). He got him the snakes, my friend got them cooled down, warmed up, and while the females were gravid, he was raided and at the same time, a friend of his got raided for the same thing, except with western fox snakes. My friend paid a large fine and got 5 years. Best of luck to you!
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RE: Help! I've been set up!!!
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by BobbieLea on February 22, 2016
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The Lacey Act currently only covers 4 species of snake none of which are venomous, including Burmese, North and south African pythons and yellow anacondas. They are illegal to import as well as, illegal to transport over state lines which make it at that point a federal offense, and a felony. Meaning if you have one as a pet, and you move out of state, you cant take your pet without risking a stint in federal prison, as well as being crucified by environmental/ conservation groups, and the so called normal people, and the 6 o'clock news. Hopefully this helps, and I hope the legal issues clear up, but you should have thought to give the postal service a heads up about the possibility of hot snakes being transported by them. There was a huge liability that either the snakes could have been injured, killed, or a worker handling the package could have had the same thing happen to them, and by not warning them, and putting them on alert, it would be just as much on your conscience as theirs. Ethics is a responsibility of everyone, not just snake people, and it isn't a matter of them against us, or anything like that, it should be we all try to keep each other safe as humans, just as we want for our snakes.
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