Think Before You Speak
from
Jason P. Holland
on
January 15, 2002
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I was checking some of my egroup messages and found a simple question from a man asking about venomoids. The tirade that ensued against this man was unreal. Implying that he was everything from an idiot to a blight on the snake keeping hobby. This article isn't about venomoids, it's about the things we say.
I know our hobby is much maligned and we feel the urge to defend ourselves against yet another attack. Or, we feel the need to reprimand someone for, what we think, could be harmful to our hobby. But, I think, sometimes we do ourselves as much harm as novice burmese python and rattlesnake keepers ever could.
When I started keeping snakes, I asked "silly" beginner questions. Some of which were met with harsh reactions from people, people who didn't even know me. It almost discouraged me, not from keeping snakes, but from asking questions. I didn't want to be called an idiot by a bunch of people I had never met. So, I read alot of books and, fortunately, found some very knowledgeable, patient people to answer all my "silly" questions.
I think, when the response is harsh to that novice rattlesnake keeper. More often than not, that guy will, most likely, strike out on his own. Either to prove to us he isn't an idiot or just to avoid being insulted. He'll strike out, get that rattlesnake, and without the benefit of an experienced keepers advice, most likely end up getting bit. Adding yet another black mark to our hobby.
I am asked quite often about snakes. Either by coworkers, people in my home or on the net. I hear novice questions, silly questions, and more than a few down right ridiculous ones. I answer all of them as politely as I can. Either with an explanation or referral to a website. During the course of this, I quite often hear how they had asked this before. And, alot of people were very rude, vulgar, or insulting. "I thought, 'all you people', were like that.", is a common response I get. In making harsh statements to people we are actually labeling ourselves as crude, short tempered cretins. This only succeeds in reinforcing peoples fear of snakes. Would you want a hot tempered creep, with hot snakes, living next door to you?
I've been called everything from a fool to a danger junkie, again, by people who don't really know me. Told, "no!, your wrong, ALL snakes are venomous!, I read it somewhere!" And, been accused of being a social misfit, using snakes to scare or impress people. The people making the accusations are ALWAYS either ill informed about snakes or deathly afraid of them.
We can't make EVERYONE love and respect snakes the way we do. We can't always make them fear snakes less. But, we can affect more of a change in peoples perception of snakes by providing true facts and information. By displaying good, safe, and responsible care practices. And by keeping a friendly, calm and patient attitude.
I get tired of answering the same old questions over and over again too. But, then I remember how I was treated when I started out. It will be a real challenge getting people to respect snakes and respect our right to keep them. But, I think we're up to it. We come in close proximity to venomous snakes everyday...By Choice! We were willing to devote long hours of reading, years of handling nonvenomous snakes, and asked endless questions just to get enough knowledge to keep our hots. If we can do that, I think we can answer a few "silly" questions, and keep our cool doing it.
Think Before You Speak
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by DexterB on January 15, 2002
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Jason,
You've made some good points in this article, and I would like to respond to it. I too, condemn the people who are not willing to give serious beginners any credit when they ask 'silly' questions, but instead try to flame them.
This is not only disrespectful, but also creates a situation in which those people go ahead and buy the venomous snake that they want, without being fully prepared to take proper care for them, which in turn may give the hobby a bad name if something bad happens, like an escape or a bite incident.
But nowadays there are also lots of people who are 'into venomous snakes' just for the excitement and the thrill of being able to say that they own venomous snakes.
These people keep large venomous snakes in small and improper housings and take them out to show them off, or have their picture taken 'handling' or even worse 'freehandling' the snake.
And these people also found the way to the forums on the Internet and have begun to ask their questions....
I remember that during the time that the SHHS was founded, there was not nearly as much information to be found regarding the keeping of venomous snakes on the Internet. That's why I was one of the first keepers in Europe to become an active member of the SHHS and had my former web-site approved by them. ( The very first SHHS logo even contained a picture of my Crotalus horridus atricadautus female "Bitch" which still can be seen in the horridus photo album by the way...)
I had a disclaimer on my site warning people that venomous snakes were dangerous and that I would not recommend anyone else to start keeping these animals.
I also got tagged ever so lightly with one fang of my female Cr. horr.atricaudatus. (hence her name "Bitch")
Still I received about 40 e-mails a week, asking for info on how and where to obtain snakes, or how to keep them.
But nevertheless, even today there are still lots of things that you can't learn from a book, or find on the Internet. Actually handling a snake for instance, is difficult and has to be learned from another keeper.
There's no way in the world hat you can learn that from a book or a web-site.
So with this in mind, I've virtually stopped answering people who ask 'silly' questions on a forum.(which is better than call them names or worse.)
Sometimes I rely on my instinct, which says that the person asking a question is serious about getting into the hobby and provide that someone with an answer.
But nowadays there seem to be more and more 'trolls' and sensationalists, who get their kicks out of asking for information that they really do not need and I for one am getting tired of typing the same info over and over again, knowing that it is not going to be used.
If people are serious in getting information they can always send me an e-mail and I'll be happy to help them out.
But as for the forums are concerned I'm afraid I won't be as helpful as I used to be anymore....
regards,
Dex.
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by KingCobraFan on January 16, 2002
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Excellent article! I'm extremely fortunate in that I've
met a venomous expert who's more than willing to share info and let me watch him work. Certainly "Watch this!"
types are annoying, and it can be hard to sort them out
from those of us genuinely interested in learning about
hots, but we've got to learn from somewhere.
Sincerely,
Bill Huseth
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by NegativGain on January 19, 2002
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I was fortunante enough to be taught since the age of 3 on how to handle snakes. My father gave me a garter snake as a kid, and i have since moved on to boigas, copperheads and rattlers. My only supervised experience was with non-hots, but after 18 years of that, I was willing to give it a try. My b.Dendrophila was my first hot, and even now, I handle it like a hot snake. People think I am completely insane (and have no problem telling me that) for keeping ANY snakes, not just hots. There will always be people who don't like them, or are just afraid of them. All we can do is try to educate them.
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It is irritating......
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by Hotstuff on January 24, 2002
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dealing time and time again with the thrill seekers. And the novices that believe "it can't be THAT tough". And, granted, often if you do try to explain, they don't listen. But, there are always those new guys that are simply misinformed. And laying out facts for them, can change their mind about getting a potentially dangerous herp. Sure, more often than not, our warnings fall on deaf ears. But, every now and then, those new guys listen. I've gotten emails from some of them saying things like,"I had no idea, I guess I better wait." I for one, don't think I could live with myself if I didn't at least try to prevent them from getting a hot snake prematurely. Not only might we be preventing yet another blemish to snake keeping, we could be saving a life.
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by Ophion on February 27, 2002
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I definitely agree with this article. I think the one thing we can do as a hobby to ensure our future is HANG TOGETHER. I also have to deal with macho idiots and people who have no idea what they are doing asking "where can I get a cobra like that?" We all have that problem, but there must not be a 'flame first and ask questions later' attitude. There is far too much acrimony in this hobby as it is.
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Anonymous post on March 13, 2002
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Well thought article.
Just a perspective from an outsider:
I remember once a friend told me that I need to scale my desktop wallpaper properly so that my PC would function smoother. And when I asked him how to do that, the answer I got was "If you don't know scaling then you don't need a wallpaper".
The questions to people who flame others who asked questions then is: How would you like it to be in my shoes when I got the above answer.
Do you really think people would listen to you and not by a hot/delay buying a hot when that's your way of telling them? Or would they just think "Hey, if I'm not going to get help from this bunch of elitist a$$holes, then I'll just go and do it even if I have to learn the hard way."?
I don't actually keep any herp, just occasionally browse through websites and forums out of interest. It is just really sad when I get to see an otherwise good informative forums dirtied by so much flamings.
I've been to lots of other forums on the net, where people are there to help each other, and it is my impression that herp forums have a high proportions of people who would easily flame others simply because they have different values.
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by Sheldon on April 14, 2002
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I think your article was very informative, but I'd like to know what some of the "silly" questions are that you have heard. I've been keeping and breeding venomous snakes for 13 years and I'm sure I've asked my share of "silly" questions. But if it wasn't for those silly questions I wouldn't be where I am today.
I have no herpetology schooling and I have no degree but I do have many years of knowledge and experience, thanks to other herpers who were willing to answer some of my "silly" questions.
As far as I'm concerned there are no silly questions when it comes to hot snakes, especially, or anything for that matter. When it comes to those who never put in enough time to respect and understand the snake I can understand questions. And even now after 13 years, I'm still asking questions and I probably will until the day I die. And when somebody does ask me something, silly or not, I try to the best of my ability to answer that question in an informative and respectable way. Being that they are at the bottom of the ladder of herping I will try to the best of my ability to guide them the right way.
I don't mean to put your article down, because it was very informative, like I said, and I can relate to most of it. But by not answering people's questions because you think they are silly, isn't going to help make them any more informed or you any better of a herper. You got where you are today just as I have, or any of us have, by questioning and learning.
Think back to your first hot herp, and who was there for you. How silly were you?
Sheldon
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by Sheldon on April 14, 2002
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The above comment is directed to "Dex" not the writer of the "Think Before You Speak" article.
Sheldon
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by CollegeRattler on April 15, 2002
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Good artile,
I hope it brings to light the true dangers of putting down the begginer. I remember when I was a begginer I got chewed out for introducing myself on a forum. I would like some of these guys who are tuff online to say it to my face and see what happens. I stopped asking questions because of those people. Sometimes I even avoid answering questions because I'm worried about people bashing my answers. Just common manners have been forgotten by some of these "experts" but thankfully not all are like this and good people are helping the novice get their needed answers.
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by DexterB on April 15, 2002
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Sheldon,
I think you have missed something important here. In my reply I have stated that I virtually do not answer people who are asking 'silly questions' on the different venomous forums. (questions like: what is better to begin with, a Gaboon viper or a Western Diamondback? coming from a person with zero experience handling venomous snakes.....)
However, I also state in my reply that anyone that wants to get into the hobby in a serious way, can always e-mail me and I'm happy to answer all of their questions.
It's not that I do not want to share information, but rather that I am tired of answering the same questions over and over again. The people that ask those questions, are going to do what they want to do anyways,( believe me, I know they will) so what is the point? Am I supposed to be my brothers keeper regardless of what?
My take is that if people are genuinely and seriously interested in obtaining vital information regarding husbandry or handling techniques for specific venomous species, they will go that extra mile and e-mail me off the forum.
I get your point about sharing and exchanging information and totally agree with that, but the Internet has made it possible for lots of people who should not be in this hobby, but are actually in it for the wrong reasons, to get information for free without being able to ascertain the true value of it.
I could write a complete lecture on how to handle a 9 ft Black Mamba, but that will not help them out in actually handling such a snake, if they have never handled anything as big as that before.
Some things you simply cannot learn from a forum on the Internet, even if you get all the right answers.
As for what some might call a 'high horse attitude' is concerned, I can only say that I have always been a person that has tried to be helpful in anyway that I could, up to a certain point.
I will not help a person who clearly is planning to do something drastic, which will place him/her in a sitution which is way over his/her head.
If something bad happens, this will reflect bad on our hobby and that is the last thing that we need.
Hope this clarifies things for ya...;-)
grtz,
Dex.
PS: When I got my first (baby) Western Diamondback some 12 years ago from a breeder in Germany, the only advice he gave me was 'not to let it bite ya' and to use tools if I absolutely had no other option than to handle the snake. Oh and he wished me good luck too!
Don't know if I qualified as being silly or just plain ignorant and pigheaded at that time, but I went ahead and bought the snake anyway....;-)
Today I feel absolutely no regrets about that decision, even though when I look back, I can now clearly see that I have had some very close calls during that first year!
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by ilove_bradybarr on April 26, 2002
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Hi all,
I am glad somebody finally decided to write an article on this topic. I am a 14 year old girl, and I am serious about wanting to be a herpetologist. I visit websites to get advice from older, more experienced herpers.
However, I am sick of people assuming that because I am young, I want to impress friends or am going through a 'phase'. I do NOT like snakes to appear 'cool'. When I ask a question, I ask it because I want to know the answer, and I care about gaining the necessary knowledge before purchasing a snake. I do not want to be one of those idiots who gives snakes a bad name because they were foolish enough to buy a snake without knowing the first thing about it. Sure, I could go out and buy a hot snake, but that would not be fair on the snake, and I am responsible enough to wait until i can take full responsibility for my actions.
While I realise that answering similar questions over and over again can be tiring, please bear in mind that you must educate the new generation of herpetologists in order to protect the reputation of herpetologists, and more importantly, snakes in general. We don't appreciate being patronized, and I ask those here to remember that everyone is a novice at first.
I ask you all to help fight the 'A good snake is a dead snake' image, and educate both the public and amatuer herpetologists by answering 'stupid' questions.
Thank you for listening.
Amy.
crocodile_wild@hotmail.com
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by snakes04 on April 28, 2002
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This was a good article. I know alot of people that would like to own hots but they do not know too much about them. I have been herping for about ten years and I give everyone that asks me any kind of a question about snakes a very reasonable answer. I do not get sarcastic or rude. I have actually, by not being rude or sarcastic, turned some snake "haters" into people who just like snakes from a distance. At least they don't hate and kill a snake every time they see one. They respect the snakes now. These people have been told some bizzar answers in the past about snakes and that caused them to hate them. I try my best to educate everyone about snakes that shows any kind of enterest or hatred against them. Some people will not listen or they will keep coming back with very rude remarks about the information you are providing them with. Don't get rude or sarcastic back at them. It will only make things worse.
Have fun Herping,
Will
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by JoeKaufmann on June 19, 2002
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Great article! I've seen too many condescending responses to beginner questions in this forum. Replies to the effect that "if you don't even know that, you're certainly not fit to keep a venomous snake" will only discourage a prospective snake buyer from asking questions that are important to have answered. If someone doesn't want to answer a "silly" question, it's better not to respond at all than to act elitist and condescending. I imagine saying "don't go buy a hot snake, because you're way too ignorant" will only make them buy the snake sooner.
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by serpentinespirit on July 7, 2002
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thank you for that great article, nothing worse than a haughty pompous pretentious c***sucker! I too am a novice hot keeper but have wrangled nons since about 8 or 10, then i knew all the domestic venomous so i could catch the nons by the process of deduction, now at 37 i've just begun to keep the hots, I read quite a bit from this and other websites on the topic and i know there are still plenty of questions that will arise from time to time and will need the experience coupled with the kindness of a fellow hot keeper...snakes to me are beautiful. no other animals exibit the variety of color, patterns of color, shapes and sizes, and range in level of potential danger (i say potential, the black mamba is not dangerous if you avoid it). we need this forum as a shelter from the asinine questions from those whove never even touched the baby garter snake brought to show-and-tell and proceed with verbal diarreah like "wut chew gawna dew with uh copperheed?"
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by Peb on September 10, 2002
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Thank you for an intelligent and timely article.
In the recent past I was flamed by several members of this happy little group because I said something about cottonmouths on my website that they didn't agree with. In checking my site statistics I find a lot of people lately are coming to my site by searching for "cottonmouth", so I've been anticipating another attack.
The guys who flamed me were rude, aggressive and threatening, but when offered the opportunity to educate they became very quiet. Believe me, this does not impress anyone with your point of view. If you are only willing to rant and rave but not educate, just what IS your point?
Its great that you have a place to discuss your interest in venomous snakes, just follow the advice to Think Before You Speak. Are you going to be proud of your words later? Are they advancing your cause or hurting it?
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by Annie on September 25, 2002
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Thankyou! Your opinions and outlook expressed in this article are a very welcome and refreshing change. In my life, i have encountered so many "high horse" attitudes from bufoons passing themselves off as experts on everthing. It's not just in this field, the "flaming" seems to be everywhere. Years ago, i tried to get into the skydiving hobby, but because of all the vulgar language and tempermental attitudes, i quit after my fourth jump. Too bad for the so called "jumpmaster" who lost out on any respect (and money) i had for him. I've had more than my fill of this same kind of elitism every time i go scuba diving. Thank God that there are still a few people like you out there who understand that asking a question is not necissarily a trademark of stupidity.
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by AspViperOphelia on October 6, 2002
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I'm a minor (most regretably...oh well) and an extreme beginner in this. Not being an adult, my intelligence and knowledge is often underestimated...still, I've had beginner questions. I keep two Western Hognoses (rear fanged venomous, but only mildly) and my elder, at approx. one year old, hasn't even reached sexual maturity. However, I'm most serious about this hobby, and, being absolutely enthralled by Monacle cobras, plan to purchase one when I can. Let me emphasize that it will be a venomoid.
Reaching my point, I'd like to thank you for putting up with "stupid" beginner questions. I've been fortunate enough to have some connections and my questions have been answered.
Best regards,
~Tara
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by Craig23 on April 22, 2003
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I agree with all this. It helps beginers so much to be able to ask questions from experienced people. However one thing i dont like is when people ask questions that they really should already know from reading books etc. I know that when i first started out i had read tens of books for the love and interest of it. And learnt alot. If someone comes out with a question like "are pythons venomous" then they havent read alot and I find that a sign of no real interest. Some questions shouldnt need to be asked by people that are really intereted in herpetology. BUT, books dont tell all, and without experienced people giving advice i know for sure i wouldnt have half the knowledge i do now.
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by crotalisviridishelleri on May 30, 2003
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Well said!
I have run into many herpetologists over the years who seem to enjoy this flaming of beginner's in the herp world..Im sure that entymology and Ichthyology(is that how you spell it?) have their share of these irritable folks as well.
I have been accused of reading the "wrong books" as well as playing around with one-too-many ball pythons when I should've been paying attention to the kingsnake killing my rattlesnake..er,um..nevermind!
Seriously,though,I think our hobby would have a lot more people interested in seeing what we do and why than sitting there and badmouthing us for being the so-called freaks we are.We are interested in nature and science and nothing more.
Asking questions and reading as many books as we can is how we learn and dispel the myths and fears associated with snakes.We can thanks many folks such as Bill Haast,Ross Allen,C.B.Perkins and Laurence Klauber who devoted a good portion of their lives to the study of these fascinating creatures.
It is our responsibility now in the 21st century to carry-on this tradition and improve on what the 20th century left-off at.Seek knowledge.And let's not turn away potential budding herpetologists!
Thanks,
Juan
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by txhiker on July 23, 2003
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I agree with you about trolls and flamers coming out of the woodworks to sap the energy of good hearted people. I like to call them social vampires.
The way that I suggest you get out of this viscious circle without giving power to these people is to refer them to resources. If they are serious then guidance is all they need. They don't need answers, they don't need to be taught over the internet, they need guidance.
Resources I am referring to is giving out the name and address of the local herp organization. If the person won't post back with their city or location, then they aren't serious. You can also indirectly ask by asking if they can attend a herp meeting in your state. They will almost always post back with what state they live in as the reason why it would be hard for them to attend your meeting. If they won't follow the line of conversation, then don't give them the time of day. With trolls and flamers, always answer a question with a question.
Also, serious book titles and also names of well-known snake handlers and their localities would be good. These "silly" questioners can go in person to the exhibits or offices where these people display their wares. The professional can size them up on the spot and determine for one if they are adults or children. Children shouldn't be getting guidance from strangers. Parents should take enough interest to guide their own kids to a professional. If they are going to allow a child to have a snake, then they should be concerned enough to pay attention to monitoring their kids activities. The fact that a person makes a trip to see a professional is in itself enough to determine that the person is serious about acquiring a venomous snake. I definately feel that the liability of accidently giving out information to someone under age is too great a risk. Silly questions are frequently asked by children, many times in other countries not even on this continent. Bored children and people are frequently trolls also who are easy to expose. Just be professional.
My policy is to respond privately to the person to determine their age. You can safely assume that silly questions come from three sectors. 1. Children with no research skills 2. adults who don't read books or attend organizational meetings and 3. trolls. The first one needs guidance in general, not answers. The second needs to have their memories jogged about the existance of libraries and local professionals. Even the titles of books would be more helpful in case the person is in a rural area but can order books online. Don't embarass them publically by assuming they are a child because it may be an adult. Adults forget that their are children with free access to the internet. (Now that is scarey!)
One can easily send a tactful email to determine who you are dealing with if you prefer. Geographic questions can't usually be answered by people who don't have drivers licenses.
Kids are best directed to their local Herp society where they will have to be driven by an adult. Most people under the age of 18 do not have the college level research skills or the professional life experience from outside employment to know about Herp Societies or other organizations. Their parents may be uninvolved and they just need this little kick start to know what questions to ask their parents, such as "take me to the Herp meeting please."
If you are truly suspicious of someone and feel they are just a troll, email them privately. When you take away their podium, it pretty much eliminates their medium for ego boosting.
I hope this helps. Don't deprive the rest of us sponges of your knowledge because of a few bad apples. Thanks for your honesty and expressing your feelings on this topic.
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by typhlops on December 27, 2004
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i just wanted to say i totally agree with you on this subject. i too have kept reptiles of all kinds, and snakes being 1st on the list. i also have no degree's or herpitile schooling (although it is a goal),but i have kept a number of highly agrressive non-venomous snakes in order to gain a start on my experience in hot herp keeping. if everyone i asked gave me a negative answer to my questions i may have been discuraged from the hobby. unfortunatly in my state there are not many hot keepers (or serious keepers) to talk to 1st hand, so i learn alot on my own and have done so for the past 18yrs-i'm only 23 now. eventually i hope to get enough advise and more experience to handle hots safely. i am confident in my very well advanced skills with large,fast and aggressive boids and colubrids, and i guess what i'm trying to say is people like you make all the diffrance in educating people like me.-thanks nick wilcher
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by typhlops on December 27, 2004
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i just wanted to say i totally agree with you on this subject. i too have kept reptiles of all kinds, and snakes being 1st on the list. i also have no degree's or herpitile schooling (although it is a goal),but i have kept a number of highly agrressive non-venomous snakes in order to gain a start on my experience in hot herp keeping. if everyone i asked gave me a negative answer to my questions i may have been discuraged from the hobby. unfortunatly in my state there are not many hot keepers (or serious keepers) to talk to 1st hand, so i learn alot on my own and have done so for the past 18yrs-i'm only 23 now. eventually i hope to get enough advise and more experience to handle hots safely. i am confident in my very well advanced skills with large,fast and aggressive boids and colubrids, and i guess what i'm trying to say is people like you make all the diffrance in educating people like me.-thanks nick wilcher
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by n0ryx on May 8, 2006
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This reply is to Amy, are you sure you are only 14, the points you have made are as mature as any I have heard from many adults. You will no doubt become a fine Herptologist keep asking questions no one instinctivly knew about snakes they too learned by asking. Hang in there.
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by n0ryx on May 8, 2006
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Thanks, Jason for an informative article. I was fortunate to have had knowing people to ask questions to about things I was interested in. Happily they were proud to answer them no matter how silly it seemed I gained a lot of knowlege by them taking the time to answer. I learned how to handle snakes however on my own after reading about there individual characteristics such as identifying which were venomous and which were not. I learned not to let my first hot snake position it's self so it could wrench it's self from my grip. It almost got free so I threw it away from me. It had crooked it's body behind my elbow and levered itself nearly out before I tossed it. I would like to hear about any one elses close calls. Thanks from Bill at n0ryx@sbcglobal.net
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by sharkbt on November 11, 2008
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i think you can't be more right, i totally agree with you.. if only more people respected snakes just like us. well done
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Keeping Kraits
I Should Be Dead
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