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Validity of C. horridus atricaudatus
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by SwampY on August 4, 2005
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A pdf version of this article is available in the files download section of this website if you would like to offer it as a download on your website.
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RE: Validity of C. horridus atricaudatus
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by Chance on August 4, 2005
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All of these arguments are compelling, but to put it simply, us lay-folks, those of us outside the actual field of genetics who don't work with nor really understand what goes on with snakes on a molecular level, really shouldn't try to put our two cents in on this issue. I feel as though this article presents arguments that are overly-simplistic and somewhat unfounded. A definitive work analyzing Crotalus horridus has already been completed (see sources cited already) and concluded that there was simply not enough genetic difference to warrant valid subspeciation between southern and northern populations. Taxonomy is more and more being based on actual genetic science, thank goodness, rather than field (or worse, tank!!) observations and inferences. When a new scientific research paper comes out saying Crotalus horridus is indeed composed of two, maybe even more, subspecies based on REAL GENETIC evidence, then I'll concede to canebrakes being valid. Until then, they're just prettier timbers (IMHO of course).
-Chance
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RE: Validity of C. horridus atricaudatus
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by fizzbob7 on August 6, 2005
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i'll never be able to tell them apart.....this whole topic frustrates me......if i bring someone an average, unremarkably colored crotalus horridus, how can they tell me what it is (timber or cane) because i've ALWAYS heard both ways depending on who you ask......some say the grayish/pinkish timbers are canes.....some say they're timbers......the hillbillies around here know no other word for them BUT timbers.........
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RE: Validity of C. horridus atricaudatus
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by Marty1st on August 7, 2005
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They've always been seperated in my hot room and always will be.Good article. Marty
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RE: Validity of C. horridus atricaudatus
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by fizzbob7 on August 7, 2005
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but how do you seperate them? the only visible thing is color, and that's an indication of where it came from but isn't 100% accurate.......i honestly don't think there is any way for a normal person to figure out which is which if you don't know exactly where they are from, and even then, their areas overlap at some point on the map.....i wish someone would explain to me how i can tell the difference in each
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RE: Validity of C. horridus atricaudatus
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Anonymous post on August 7, 2005
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I can promise you, give me a bucket with five of each and I'll separate them for you :-)
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RE: Validity of C. horridus atricaudatus
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by GREGLONGHURST on August 7, 2005
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I remember hearing years ago that there was a poulation of what appeared to be canebrakes..dorsal stripe, coloring, everything like one from Georgia..in the northwestern potion of the timber's range. I don't even recall the state now. If that is true, though, it sort of puts a kink in the first part of the differentiation. I have always felt that the subclassification was valid..except for that bunch of snakes up there where they ain't s'posed to be. Any of you guys know of that population or heard of it?
~~Greg~~
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RE: Validity of C. horridus atricaudatus
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by fizzbob7 on August 7, 2005
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--I can promise you, give me a bucket with five of each and I'll separate them for you :-)--
yes, you'll seperate them by YOUR methods, which differ from person to person.....that's my point, without DNA proof, there is no proof you're right because someone else will tell you that you aren't.....why not just explain what YOUR methods are.....i've had a lot of timbers/canes and all the experts call them one or the other using their methods, and since everyone isn't right, i don't know what to use as a guideline.....it's like taking 2 average looking white people, and being able to tell you whether they are german or french....all you can do is guess
i just wish someone would give me a definitive explanation.....the fact that everyone has different methods of this just tells me that no one really has THE answer.....i don't think there is anything you can look at on a horridus that will tell you either or....all you can do is guess
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RE: Validity of C. horridus atricaudatus
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by Chris_Harper on August 7, 2005
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Once you have correlated the photos of the snakes with the location found, it's not difficult to see the characteristics that denote locality. Just look at the horridus variations photo album. Also, look at Mardi Snipe's photo album at CoastalReptiles.com
There are plenty of differences in morphology based solely on locality, regardless of whether or not you recognize atricaudatus. I know plenty of people that can seperate Georgia horridus from Kentucky, Virginia or Pennsylvania horridus any time you ask. They just have a lot of field time.
~CH
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RE: Validity of C. horridus atricaudatus
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by fizzbob7 on August 7, 2005
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i have a horridus from south georgia.....caught in the wild......everyone swears he's from much further north......even a neighbor who has kept hots for 30 years and works for the game dept swears it's from north carolina or further north......that is proof enough that you can not look at a timber/cane and id it with 100% accuracy....their ranges overlap, sometimes the colors are borderline, etc.......and one more time, can someone simply EXPLAIN these differences......what color denotes what, what stripe denotes what, etc......i hear "you can seperate them" but no explanation of it all....kinda like a word you know the meaning of, yet can not define.......if you can ID them, then you can tell me how......i've heard nothing that is certain so far though....everyone's theory has a hole somewhere
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