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NYS New Exotic Law in Action
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by Phobos on January 26, 2005
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They just drove the snake keepers underground. Another snakebite to add to the list.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/274545p-235090c.html
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RE: NYS New Exotic Law in Action
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by Jont52 on January 26, 2005
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I think you need to sue the state for this law. Banning rights to property is unconstitutional. There has to be some herp lawyer who knows enough to take this case. Anyone else agree?
Just my opinion
Jon Tragash
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RE: NYS New Exotic Law in Action
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by MattHarris on January 26, 2005
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Al,
The new law didn't just drive these guys underground. NYC has banned venomous snakes for nearly a decade!! The new law wouldn't have changed anything in regards to NYC. We made a point of it to the legislators that NYC IS THE PROBLEM!!! Not the responsible LICENSED keepers who reside elsewhere.
While I support to ability of persons to legally keep venomous snakes with a permit, I'm start to lean toward the belief that less than 10% of the people who currently own them, actually need them or should have them.
Matt
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RE: NYS New Exotic Law in Action
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by Jont52 on January 26, 2005
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Matt,
Your right about the need for a permit system to weed out the irresposible. You have to look at it from the legislative perspective. They have to face the public again for reelection, so it is not in their best interest to go against what they view as public safety. You need to challenge the legality of these laws in the courthouse. There are property laws that this violates I believe that are constitutionally protected. The courts don't have to face the public; they judge on rights.
Jon
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RE: NYS New Exotic Law in Action
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by ALA_herp31 on January 26, 2005
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Yes I agree with a permit system, but I don’t agree with a person having to have 1,000-2,000 hours of training just to keep the Snakes. I think the problem with permits is that if you even try to get one it takes so much time and money to get it (make it reasonable priced, instead of pricing it up to kill the hobby) . Most people cant get one because of the time they have to spend at work or doing things that have to be done. To me there is a better permit system than the one they have in FL, such as giving a test to those that are planing on keeping the Animals, then after that have a inspector to come out and check on the caging and care of the Animals. Im sure most people in our community would agree with this method more. I know that a lot of people in the herping community are not responsible keepers, but I don’t think that the percentages are as high as let on to be. In my mind and vew the majority of keepers are very knowledgeable about the keeping and care of the Animals they keep. I would really hate to see laws come to the point of making good keepers loose the ability to keep, just because they don’t have the time to spend with a trainer, that would be a shame. Look at it this way, if you want to get your Drivers Licence, you study a book, take a test, then get a temporary permit to drive, and then you go take your driving test and get your Licence. The same methods could be used for Venomous Reptile keepers, example : go take a handling test, get a temporary permit, have a inspector to come out at he’s or her own discretion to check on the caging and care of you Animals at any time they see fit, after a trial period, have the keeper to come in and take another test to see if the person is still qualified to keep safely, last but not least, have a inspector to come out and check on the keeping methods, without pre-warning the keeper on times. I think that this method of policing our hobby would be better, it still gives those of use that cant get the time with a trainer, the chance to keep what we love so dearly. Please excuse my methods of writing, I am not a good writer, but I hope I have made this point clear enough to read and understand. Thanks to SHHS for allowing us to voice our opinion on the laws and possible bans to our hobby, thanks again.........Be safe ya’ll, happy herping, Wally
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RE: NYS New Exotic Law in Action
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by Snakeman1982 on January 27, 2005
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I certainly tend to agree with Matt's thoughts on the subject. Everyone always thinks it is their natural right to do whatever they want to with or own whatever animal they want. Most people shouldn't own venomous snakes even when they had the snake's best interest in mind. And I don't think that academics are any better at keeping herps than hobbyists. I have known several Ph.D biologists who didn't need to be having snakes because the snakes they had weren't being cared for properly. Having a scientific background doesn't make you care more about animals than the lay person.
But I also don't believe in horribly strict regulation for some who actually have a need for these animals. Just enough to keep many impulse buyers from buying stuff off the street or online who have no experience or reason for buying a snake. And I am concerned about all herps, not just venomous snakes. Because to me a person that mistreats a boa is just as bad as a person that mistreats a rattlesnake. I am not concerned at all for the person buying the snake. If they get bit by a venomous snake because they were stupid and didn't know what they were doing it isn't any of my concern. So I am for regulation on all wildlife from idiotic people that shouldn't have the right to own goldfish.
Sadly the people that are irresponsible always screw it up for the people that are responsible and really care about their animals. If no one screwed up and were excellent keepers, then we wouldn't have to worry about laws and regulations.
As many animals that I have seen in the herpetoculture hobby there are very few that I think live relatively good and healthy lives, even by people who "love" their animals. Would you like to be owned by yourself if you were your snake/snakes? Even with best intentions things almost always go wrong with captive animals like parasites, diseases, malnutrition, etc...
I also think it was probably rediculous to give someone anti-venom who got tagged by a sidewinder. Only the worst bite from a sidewinder would probably need treatment.
Robert
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RE: NYS New Exotic Law in Action
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by Snakeman1982 on January 27, 2005
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Ohh yeah,
And excellent ideas Wally. Most of my previous comments were in response to your post. Especially about the tests. Like I said reading books and being an academic Ph.D herpetologists doesn't make you a good keeper. I have over 80 really good herpetology books, at least half on snakes, that I read and reference but that doesn't mean I am good at keeping venomous snakes. Having worked at a small private zoo with over 150 crocodilians of 6 species and 4 species of venomous snakes I can say that reading books didn't help me handle venomous snakes. Field experience did that and there are surely some really smart kids out there that can pass a test that aren't suited for owning a venomous species. Though you were probably thinking about tests that weren't on paper I am guessing.
Another problem I had was that these "inspectors" could show up whenever they wanted to in order to check in on the person. An excellent idea that would work in a perfect world but most would see that as a violation of privacy and where is all the money suppose to come to finance these "inspectors" of thousands of keepers. The reasonably priced permit system doesn't seem to be profitable enough. That could make the permits too expensive if they had to spend money checking on everyone.
And what if you were doing something illegal or controversial at the moment and didn't want the "inspector" to come in at that particular moment. You might have an excellent cage setup but are in the process of some illegal tatoo parlor in your basement and don't want to get busted for that. Should you lose your snakes because you didn't want the inspector rattin' on your tatoo parlor. Crazy scenario but you can surely think of more.
Excellent ideas though. I also don't agree with the 1,000-2,000 hours of experience stuff.
Robert
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RE: NYS New Exotic Law in Action
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by ALA_herp31 on January 27, 2005
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Hey Robert, I do see the truth in what your saying. It would be hard for some keepers to except a inspector coming to their home unexpected. I for one, would be willing to except that as long as it meant me being able to keep my Animals. Some people in our community would think it to be a violation of their privacy rights, but if it meant I could keep my Beloved Venomous Beauties, I would gladly do it (being you worked at a small Zoo, as I did also, you probably had inspectors coming out to check on the health and keeping of the Animals right, well in a lot of ways this would be the same thing, only in a privet since). What I meant by pricing the permits to reasonable price, is say maybe $200-$300 a year, I think that would be plenty. I would think this to be a fare price, and I think that would pay for the inspectors time considering that the amount of keepers in this country would probably increase with such a permit system in action. Think of it this way, there are a lot of people that live in states that have laws that do not allow the keeping of Venomous Reptiles. If such a permit system were put in place nation wide, it would allow those that want to keep to have their Animals. I think this idea could very well pay for itself, but it could just be wishful thinking on my part huu? Ohhhh well, lets hope we can get some kind of practical law in the books to support our hobby and make it safer, without a total ban.........Be safe ya’ll, Wally
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For what its worth.....
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by MattHarris on January 28, 2005
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The New Venomous permits in NY have not been issued yet, they're waitign finalize the regulations.
Native venomous (timbers, and massasaugas) are still being regulated via Endangered Species permits, and essentially not much has changed. I just received my new permit, and aside from spelling out "NO propogation" there's nothing new in the conditions of the permit.
Matt
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