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timber rattler identification
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by timber23 on May 29, 2005
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which one has the red stripe down the center of the back, timbers or canebrakes? im thinking timbers but not 100% sure. thank you for your replies.
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RE: timber rattler identification
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by bush_viper17 on May 29, 2005
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The "canebrake" has the rust colored stripes down the center of its back. They are also lighter in color typically.
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They both do....
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by MattHarris on May 29, 2005
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That's not a unique trait to Northern horridus or Southern horridus. I've seen black phase in PA and Yellow phase in NY both possess rust colored stripes.
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RE: They both do....
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by bush_viper17 on May 29, 2005
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Yeah, I was going to say that, but I figured that he was just asking about in general. Thanks for clearing that up.
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RE: timber rattler identification
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by Chris_Harper on May 29, 2005
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Check out the photo album titled "Horridus variations".
Also, do a search of the forum using the word horridus. There are a lot of posts about the C word. (canebrake). ;-)
Chris Harper
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RE: timber rattler identification
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by agkistrodude on May 30, 2005
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Timbers may or may not have the stripe.Timbers come in every color of the rainbow,from yellow to black,some with a stripe, most do not.Canebrakes are pinkish to greyish with the dark chevron crossbands and a dark tail.ALL Canebrakes have a rust colored dorsal stripe and look pretty much alike, with the exception of one being a little lighter or darker , they all look alike.They live in differant habitats than timbers,Timbers like elevated, wooded, rocky habitats,while Canebrakes prefer lowland, marshy,swampy, kind of areas.They don't den in quantities like timbers,in fact you will usually find them alone, except during mating season.A huge timber would be around 5 feet, while Canebrakes often excede 6 feet,I'm not an expert on venom makeup, but everything I've read about these snakes says that the venom is also very different, The Canebrakes being more toxic.In fact I've caught and kept many of these snakes over the past 29 or 30 years and I can't see anything relating them as the same species other than someone linking them geneticaly.Keep one or two of each for a while,or keep sixty or seventy over 25 or 30 years as I have or try to bag a 5 foot Canebrake and a 4 or 5 foot Timber and you'll know the differance. I don't post often, but this timber/canebrake controversy thing always gets me agitated.I just don't understand how anyone that has kept them both over years can say both are the same.But I don't have the scientific backround to argue with genetics.But I do have the expieriance to know the differance,...Sorry, just venting, I can except the differance, I just don't want to. My cages will always be labeled "Canebrake and Timber", and I will gladly explain the difference to anyone that asks. (I'm not trying to start an aguement here)Marty
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RE: timber rattler identification
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by bush_viper17 on May 30, 2005
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Thats exactly the way I feel. Ive heard that a certain well respected biologist is doing a study and will prove once and for all that they are not only different subspecies but different species altogether. I cant wait until his papers come out.
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RE: timber rattler identification
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by Buzztail1 on May 30, 2005
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Canebrake Rattlesnake = Common (locally used) name for Crotalus horridus in Southeastern United States
Timber Rattlesnake = Common (locally used) name for Crotalus horridus in several parts of the United States (including some parts of the Southeast).
Timber Rattlesnake = Common (locally used) name for Crotalus viridis in several parts of the Western United States.
The use of "Canebrake" as a common name is not incorrect.
The use of Crotalus horridus atricaudatus has been scientifically declared to be inaccurate.
Just some things to ponder.
Karl
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RE: timber rattler identification
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by Chance on May 30, 2005
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Marty, all the timbers I've heard of around here, and the one which I've found (you'd call these canebrakes, as I'm in Arkansas) have been on rocky, wooded hill/mountain sides. Some friends of mine in PA find timbers up there all the time, in the exact same type of habitat. So I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say northern horridus do this, southern horridus do that. It's just not cut and dry. Neither is taxonomy, really. No one is saying that timbers and canes are the exact same snake genetically speaking, because if they were, they'd all look the same. The only thing recent taxonomic research has pointed out is that there is not enough of a difference between the two types of populations to warrant species or even subspecies status. Many snakes and other animals that have a large range have huge variations within the species. Some of these, like the Russell's vipers, have so much variation that an AV for one locale may not work on snakes from other locales. And if you want to get just a little bit more personal, humans are all the same species genetically speaking, but look at the huge amount of variation within us. Just a few more things to ponder :)
-Chance
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I agree with Karl and Chance's posts....
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by MattHarris on May 31, 2005
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nothing is black and white. NJ Pine Barrens populations behave similarly to Southern "Canebrakes" in terms of habitat and hibernation, but their coloration and patterns tend to resemble the upland timbers with varying degrees of yellow, brown or black background coloration.
I don't think calling them Canebrakes is wrong(I use the term for a lowland horridus I have from South Carolina) but I don't believe that the difference between them is cut and dry. As far as venom differences...I don't dispute the differences, but I don't think it really matters in terms of species, and think its more of a ego trip for people to think they're keeping a "Cobra in a rattlesnake package"...neurotoxic or not, its still a rattlesnake, and the variation is probably no more different than the differences between Central American durissus and South brazilian durissus.
Here's a vid-cap of a Yellow NY specimen that exhibits a rust colored stripe.
http://www.matabuey.com/field/field%20images/chh807034.jpg
Matt
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