|
1-9 of 9 messages
|
Page 1 of 1
|
|
horridus vs. atricaudatus......???
|
Reply
|
|
by fizzbob7 on August 21, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
ok...i have seen a bunch of color variations of both timbers and canes.....i have also read that canes generally get a little bigger than timbers...but a lot of the time i can't tell them apart and they look identical in every way....what exactly is it that makes them different...and can they be bred together like northern/southern coppers....is locality the only thing that makes them canes or timbers....
|
| |
|
RE: horridus vs. atricaudatus......???
|
Reply
|
|
by CollegeRattler on August 21, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
That is a tough question that is being studied by many people at the University level. I know there are behavioral differences such as, timbers mostly use community dens where as aticaudatus typically only den in small groups of 2-3(but not always). And there is the physical size difference as well, like you said canes get larger in general. I know of people intending on focusing completely on that exact question of are they different or not? As far as I know my professors say they're ALL C.h.horridus. But in most literature both ssp. are discribed. I hope this helps but I guess I didn't really answer your question because in the hepetological(University level)world they have yet to completely answer that themselves.
T.C.
|
| |
|
RE: horridus vs. atricaudatus......???
|
Reply
|
|
by jared on August 22, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
The only reason they are all considered C.h.horridus is based on DNA, in which case we are the same as chimps since we have 98.9% of there DNA as well. Caneys are larger feeding primarily on grey squirrels and inhabiting loblolly? pine forests as well as many flatland areas (big on thorn bushes too). Timbers are usually yellow or black background (canes are usually steely grey) and prefer higher elevation rockpiles and bluffs. They also will take squirrels but i believe they prefer chipmunks and smaller prey. of course the denning size is variable as well, timbers prefer much larger nests. these are the major differences, but keep in mind the "timbers" in southern illinois look like sc canebrakes, and In ga, the mountains are full of timbers. i personally believe they are broken populations of both. hope it helps
jared w
|
| |
|
RE: horridus vs. atricaudatus......???
|
Reply
|
|
by fizzbob7 on August 22, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
so what exactly are you saying....we are just chimps or horridus and atricaudatus are the same....and what about breeding....can they breed...or is that like billy bob and one of those 'nervous'goats...just something to pass the time....
|
| |
|
sorry its kinda long
|
Reply
|
|
by CollegeRattler on August 23, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Crotalus horridus aticaudatus is a subspecies of Crotalus horridus horridus. Most people know that already and I don't wish to state the obvious. Humans and chimps are two DIFFERENT SPECIES. The very basic biological definition of a TRUE species is if the animals can breed and produce fertile offspring. Of coarse there are more variables involved in that such as locality. If the two animals do not share the same range for example. And there are others I don't want to go on and on. But chimps and humans cannot breed and produce fertile offspring. But timbers and canes can!!! The only 100% way of telling the difference with out looking at the range, size, coloration,..etc is to sequence the DNA.
They have done this with Crotalus viridis ssp. they used the ND2 loop (D-loop) to distinguish out that all the the NOW known Crotalus viridis execpt for C.v.viridis and C.v.nuntius should be considered another compeletly different species. There has only been one major paper on that fact and there will need to be more of coarse to uphold those results.
Anyhow, what Im saying is if it comes from an area where they are considered C.h.atricaudatus then go by that. But as far as an OFFICIAL scientific answer they are just a subspecies for now. And as far as what I've been told by top professors of herpetology,"they are the same."
I hope that helped. People who work with both can sometimes tell the difference but FOR NOW there really isn't a true difference SPECIES WISE.
Thanks,
T.C.
Ashton, Kyle G. and Alan de Queiroz. "Molecular Systematics of the Western Rattlesnake,Crotalus viridis(Viperidae),with Comments on the Utility of the D-Loop in Phylogenetic Studies of Snakes." Department of Enviromental,Population, and Orangismic Biology, Univeristy of Colorado,Boulder. May 7, 2001
|
| |
|
clarifying my point
|
Reply
|
|
by jared on August 23, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Ok, how bout this then. Canes and timbers will interbreed, and they are (technically) the same sp. since 99.9% of the DNA is the same. I was stating it takes more than that to make animals the same sp since our dna is 98.9% the same as a chimps. And ps college rattler, eastern diamonds and caneys interbreed, so do atrox and mojaves, and even kingsnakes and rat snakes (which i believe lamproleltus and elaphe arent even the same genus) nor are edbs and caneys the same species,and officially they are not considered a ssp, they are currently considered the same sp. but then again taxonomy is always changing. Care to explain the different species and genus interbreeding, and yes these do occur in nature in some areas.
jared w
|
| |
|
RE: horridus vs. atricaudatus......???
|
Reply
|
|
by wls967 on August 23, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
ricky, here's the simple answer for us uneducated folks. (i am not knocking educated people, we rely on them ever day to keep us straight in our assumptions). i have always distinguished a cane from a timber by the fact that a cane has a red to rusty stripe that runs from the back of the head, to the tail. timbers, on the other hand do not. yes, they all vary in color, and sometimes, colors can be the same for a locality. the stripe is the difference. i have even seen C.h. ??? that had a very noticeable stripe but only ran half of the body. what was it? cross? who knows. i still consider atricaudatus a sub species, i could be wrong i hope this helps, and maybe we can get some educated opinions here. i hope we do.
later,
wls
|
| |
|
RE: horridus vs. atricaudatus......???
|
Reply
|
|
by fizzbob7 on August 24, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
the red stripe theory....from what i have seen on sites from professional breeders, they have pics of canes and timbers side by side, both with the red stripe and sometimes, both being nearly identical, except for the size sometimes....and jared...uh-huh...okey-dokey...thanks for replying...the timbers i bought today are velvety-black with little pattern...they are supposedly from georgia...but i was just wondering about it because i'm told i have both h. atricaudatus and horridus.....
|
| |
|
RE: horridus vs. atricaudatus......???
|
Reply
|
|
by jared on August 25, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Both occur in Ga, even intergrades. Did they come from the Mtns? I would be pretty sure they werent near savannah. Both sp have dorsal stripes, i dont really rely on pattern varition though, since they both can vary greatly. I just saw some timbers that looked exactly like canes here in NC, but due to locale it would "have" to be a timber. Personally I dont feel enought research is yet in place to permently declare where these animals range, if they have stable populations of both that overlap, and the stability of some of these populations. But thats just my opinion, and some of my experience with these species,
jared w
|
| |
|
Email Subscription
You are not subscribed to this topic.
Subscribe!
My Subscriptions
Subscriptions Help
Check our help page for help using
, or send questions, comments, or suggestions to the
Manager.
|
