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Georgia Horridus
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by Peter84Jenkins on October 19, 2007
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I posted two pictures of Crotalus horridus (or what was traditionally known as the timber rattlesnake) both are Georgia local. I will also be posting an almost completely black variant found in the same location. I have yet to get an exact elevation but a good approx would be 2000 feet ASL. Out of seven snakes found Aug 4, 2007 there was a 1.6 sex ratio! The male was a monster of four feet! His recent shed helped to locate him. Anyway I hope all you horridus lovers enjoy. I’ll post the pretty black one soon.
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/libraries/showfilepage/5994?offset=88
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/libraries/showfilepage/5995?offset=89
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RE: Georgia Horridus
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by Cro on October 20, 2007
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Daniel, those are some nice photos of the GA Timbers.
You say that you "found" seven snakes at that den site.
I hope you left most of them at the den after you took the photos of them. Sure would be nice to go back to that den year after year and see the same snakes.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Georgia Horridus
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by Peter84Jenkins on October 20, 2007
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I brought back two females and the big male. The only reason I brought the male back is because the local that brought me had ill intentions with him. He said he’d been looking for the “big’un” to skin him out. I just have not had time to release him for personal reasons. Any way I figured in light of all the timber discussion these would be interesting for people to see.
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RE: Georgia Horridus
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by Cro on October 20, 2007
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Daniel, it is good you saved the big male Timber Rattlesnake from the redneck skinner, and unfortunate that a local like that knows the location of the den. Hopefully, they will leave the den alone and some of the snakes will make it.
I have seen a number of great Timber Rattlesnake dens in North Georgia destroyed by the locals.
They dynomited a very large den in one location, and after that did not get rid of all of the snakes, they poured gasoline down into the rock crevices and set them on fire. It is likely that all of the hundreds of snakes that once used that den have been exterminated.
We all should be very carefull about Timber Rattlesnake den locations. We do not want to post their locations on sites like Field Herpers, or the commercial collectors will go there and wipe them out just to make money.
Also, we need to realise that if we remove a gravid female Timber Rattlesnake from a den site, we are actually removing 9 or 10 snakes from the breeding population of that area. Some dens are large enough to tolerate a bit of collecting, but many smaller dens are not. Some of the smaller dens might have only 7 or 10 snakes using them year after year.
If the reason for this is to make a couple of hundred dollars at a reptile show selling the new born young, I think that is something we should not do. Timber Rattlesnakes in North Georgia are rare enough to start with, and should not be used this way. If there are scientific reasons for collecting a single Timber or even a couple of Timbers, that would probably be acceptable, as long as the den site was not too small.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Georgia Horridus
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by 23bms on October 20, 2007
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The moral here is NEVER take anyone to a den site. The only exception I have ever made to this rule (other than my wife, who couldn't navigate her way back there if her life depended on it) was an elderly professional wildlife photographer - a widely published bird specialist - who would rather shoo a gnat away than swat it.
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RE: Georgia Horridus
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by Peter84Jenkins on October 20, 2007
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The local that brought me to the den rarely visits it and surprisingly he showed a great deal of concern for the well fare of the den. He wanted the big one for the skin but he says he doesn’t make a habit of killing snakes. He is a hunter and outdoorsman and admirer of nature. He actually made me promise not to bring others before guiding me to the den. I was happy to hear that he doesn’t make regular pilgrimages to the den for the purpose of slaughter. I told him I would rather him not kill the male because that particular snake is probably as old as me! He will be returned to the den.
The den is about 100 by 50 yards. The location will never be disclosed!
Also, I do realize the scientific importance of the den and therefore I am keeping detailed notes like temp, elevation, times, and sex ratios. I have so much time off my day job that I have made a project out of finding timber dens and taking thorough notes. Now the only reason I posted these pictures was to show a local rarely seen in herp literature and not to be lumped in the same category as “collectors”.
Yes I do have a few representations in my collection from North Georgia but not for the purpose of making money. No, we have the rattlesnake preachers for that who show up every year at Columbia.
Maybe I would like to establish a captive breeding program and offer Georgia local timbers to people who want quality captive breed animals. Wouldn’t that be better than what’s currently available in Columbia?
I realize the sensitivity of these microhabitats and their vulnerability to mankind that is why I didn’t post exact directions in the captions of my photos.
I was really under the impression that I simply just posted some nice pictures. I didn’t think people would assume I was commercializing on wild caught timbers or calling out there exact local on a loud speaker. Like I said I just wanted people to see some pictures of Horridus from a rarely discussed location. I hope that the last posts were not a subtle way of labeling me a poacher! If so, that’s pretty harsh and to tell you the truth I am rather offended. I don’t think I have ever done or said anything in my posts to suggest I am a collector for monetary profit either. Correct me if I am wrong.
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RE: Georgia Horridus
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by Cro on October 20, 2007
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Daniel, thanks for your response to the last couple of posts. I do not think you are a poacher in any way.
I have seen the setup you have for captive breeding of Eastern Diamond-Backed Rattlesnakes, and am sure you will use the same care when working with Timber Rattlesnakes.
And it makes sense to offer captive born animals for sale, so that wild populations are not being exploited for the benefit of reptile shows.
I am mostly issuing a general warning of the dangers of overcollecting from an area. If we read the old Kauffield, or Ditmars books, we will see that they took many snakes from the dens they visited. The ones they did not use in their zoos were traded with other zoos for different animals. Still, when you read their stories of collecting from dens, it is easy to think that they over-collected from some of those sites.
Way too many shows have dozens of copperheads and timber rattlesnakes that have been captured from den sites, all crowded together in 10 gallon screen topped aquariums. Many of the folks involved are in Tennassee and Kentucky. This is something that does not need to happen, and needs to change. The folks who do this need to learn the damage they are doing in over collecting from their areas. They see the snakes as a money making resource, however, that resource will eventually run out in their areas from over collecting.
Daniel, what you are doing in keeping records, and keeping the den sites secret is a very good thing. And it is even better that the local fellow who showed you the den is not interested in killing all the snakes there, and that you plan to keep the location of the den from being revealed on the herp internet sites.
I hope you take the offspring from the snakes you collected and set up a breeding colony, so that you can offer the offspring of future generations for sale, as this will take some of the pressure off of the wild populations.
Hope to talk with you more about this at the upcoming show in November.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Georgia Horridus
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by Peter84Jenkins on October 20, 2007
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John, I got your message. I appreciate the clarification on the matter. Nothing bothers me more than people who abuse the environment and to be lumped into that category would be shameful to me. I can understand your words being a broad warning to others on the fragility of timber dens, which is a noble message. I just naturally assumed it was directed at me. I am at work right now, which is why I did not answer the phone.
I will post more pictures as well as some brief, relevant stats. I will be in Columbia and look forward to seeing you. By the way most of the offspring were released only a hand few of people got babies off me this year. I am wondering about the challenge of breading a snake that historically is know to breed in the wild every two, three, and sometimes four year increments. It will be a fun project though! Enjoy the pics and be safe.
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RE: Georgia Horridus
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by Cro on October 20, 2007
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Daniel, I am looking forward to seeing the results of your work in breeding these snakes in captivity. You are very right, they are a big challenge, and there is much more that needs to be learned about them and their behaviors.
Looking forward to seeing you again at Columbia.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Georgia Horridus
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by 23bms on October 20, 2007
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No judgement was intended, merely a statement of principle.
The problem is that you can never be sure what people will do. No matter how preservation minded your prospective guest is (or professes to be), you never know, for example, who he might end up babbling to. It's best to say nothing, take no one.
The populations at the sites I've been monitoring, though stable, are not large. Given that and the low reproductive rate, it would not take much of a push to effectively wipe them out. Fortunately, the sites are relatively remote - at least an hour of strenuous hiking from the nearest access points - and I haven't seen the slightest trace of human presence in years. Still, with the relentless population growth (human) in adjacent areas, I wonder how long they will manage to hang on.
jrb
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