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Something just sounds weird about this...
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by Aries54 on June 1, 2008
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Hey guys. My mother in law called today freaking out that a woman that lives in the same county as her died from a snake bite. As I'm reading this article,....something does not make sense to me. After the woman got bit,....she collapsed right away? I've never heard of anything around the carolinas or virginia that is so nasty, the venom works that fast. Am I wrong here? Or is this another case of dumb rednecks at work? Here's the article:
Doctor says snakebite probably killed woman
The doctor said the family reacted correctly, but the woman suffered an extreme reaction.
By Neil Harvey
981-3349
A Henry County woman who died last week after collapsing in her yard is believed to have been killed by a snakebite, her doctor said Thursday.
June Engle, 62, of Ridgeway was working in her garden about 2 p.m. May 13 when, according to her husband, she cried out in pain.
"I heard her scream and she said 'Something bit me,' " Joe Engle recalled. "I could see blood flowing from her left finger. She started toward the house ... and then collapsed before she got to the door."
Engle said he performed mouth-to-mouth resuscitation for about a minute, then called 911. His wife was taken to Memorial Hospital of Martinsville and Henry County, and about two hours later was flown to the University of Virginia Medical Center.
"What our conjecture is, she had a reaction to the bite, almost like an anaphylactic reaction, almost like an allergic reaction," said Dr. Kyle Enfield, a fellow in pulmonary and critical care who treated June Engle at UVa.
Joe Engle said his wife of 44 years had no allergies that he knew of. Enfield also said she had no medical conditions and took no prescribed medications that would have contributed to her reaction. But over the course of the day, Engle said, his wife's condition got progressively worse.
"Her whole body just broke down," he recalled. "She just stopped functioning, basically. Liver. Kidneys. Her lungs were filling up with fluid, and the signs just didn't look good at all.
"It got down to the point that the doctor recommended we take her off of the ventilator," he said. "That's what we decided to do, because there was no hope."
June Engle was taken off the respirator May 15, her husband said, and she died later that day. Enfield said the family declined an autopsy and the medical examiner reviewed the case but did not believe there was a need for further inquiry.
Although the specific cause of death is not known, Enfield said he believes it was a product of organ failure caused by snakebite.
Engle said he didn't see a snake that day and hasn't seen one in the garden since last year, but he also believes a snake caused the bites.
"She had a couple of bites on the back of her left hand and what looked like a couple of marks on her forearm, which could've been bites as well," Enfield explained. He said the bites were far enough apart to rule out the possibility of a spider bite.
"When she got to us, her arm was swollen, so it made it difficult to get an exam," he added. "That's one of the reactions to snakebite."
Although death by snakebite is very rare in Virginia, Enfield thinks it could have been a timber rattlesnake, a copperhead or a pit viper, also known as an eastern cottonmouth. All three species exist within the state, according to the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries.
Calvin Reynolds, director of health statistics for the Virginia Department of Health, said death by snakebite is "a very rare occurrence" in the state. He said there have been only two reported deaths in Virginia over the past 15 years -- one in Chesterfield County in 1993 and another in Lee County in 2004.
"It's an exceedingly rare kind of reaction," Enfield agreed. "It's just one of those very sad things where everything was done the right way and a very sad outcome occurred. The family really needs to rest assured that they did everything appropriately."
He said that after a snakebite, the most important thing to do is "try to keep the person calm. Immobilize the arm but don't put a tourniquet on it. Get the person medical attention as soon as possible. Which is all the things the family did."
Engle said he's still overwhelmed by the swiftness of it all.
"It's strange, happening on a beautiful spring day when you're out working on something you love and nobody's shooting at you or dropping bombs on you," he said. "You're in a safe environment and, wham. It hit her like a ton of bricks."
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RE: Something just sounds weird about this...
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by Cro on June 1, 2008
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Mark, the story does sound a bit fishy.
I wonder though if she got a fang directly into an artery, and a large dose of venom that went directly to her heart, lungs, brain, liver, etc ?
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Something just sounds weird about this...
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by Aries54 on June 1, 2008
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I guess that would be possible. But if that was the case, dont you think that they would know for a fact that the cause of death was a snake? They are "suspecting" it was a snake that did it. And even if it did hit one, would a person really fall over that quick from a cotton mouth bite? Sudden death?
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RE: Something just sounds weird about this...
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by SwampY on June 1, 2008
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A couple of observations, not necessarily saying they apply here, but taken together could explain a bit...
A friend who was bitten by a 3' EDB went pretty much paralyzed within 15 minutes of his bite. Another friend who was bitten by what was supposed to be an EDB was unconscious within 15 minutes of his bite also.
There have been several canebrake envenomations that resulted in death in less than an hour.
An anaphylactic reaction cuts off the airway, if she were indeed allergic then a restricted airway could hasten the above examples.
A non-herping friend fainted when he was bitten by a rough green several years before he met me.
in combination a psychosomatic reaction based on fear coupled with an anaphylactic reaction, coupled with a bad envenomation could do what they mentioned in the article.
Not saying it happened that way, just saying that it could have.
Chad
http://www.envenomated.com
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RE: Something just sounds weird about this...
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by JoeCrotalid on June 1, 2008
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This story rings of 1 of 2 possibilities! The first would be as stated an acute allergic (anaphylactic) reaction causing respiratory distress, and the other being a direct intravenous or intraarterial envenomation. Without autopsy it is impossible to say if this is the cause. Unfortunately the story does not paint a good timeline, and a species could not clearly be identified. Both of these causes could in fact have precipitated this womans death.
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RE: Something just sounds weird about this...
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by FLherp on June 2, 2008
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Her husband states that he did not see a snake, nor has he seen one since last year. The identification of the offender as a snake is based on punctures being farther apart than a spider would cause. There were "bites" to her forearm and hand as well. Hymenoptera kill 60 or so people annually in the US, primarily due to anaphylaxis. Why was this not attributed to a wasp, yellowjacket, etc? Sting allergies would be far more likely than sensitivity to snake venom. Allergic reaction requires a previous exposure, was she previously bitten by a snake or exposed to venom in some other fashion? She was more likely bitten by a wasp, bee or yellowjacket on some prior occasion. Hymenoptera stings can also lead to tissue damage and kidney failure, usually if the stings occur in large numbers.
Is a pathologist's report unequivocal in identification of death due to snakebite? Are there other mechanisms of injury that can cause symptoms that resemble the damage caused by a snakebite? How many samples of tissue injury caused by snakebite has the pathologist seen? I would think that a serum test for venom from a timber, copperhead, or "a pit viper, also known as an eastern cottonmouth" would be the best method of determining if the victim was in fact bitten by a snake. A visual inspection would remain unconvincing.
On the other hand, animals from the genus Vipera have been known to produce anaphylactoid reactions quite rapidly after a bite and other species contain venom components that cause the release of biogenic amines, of which histamine is one. Has it ever been observed with North American species? I don't know. The report does not mention if she ever received antivenom, the best medication for a venomous snakebite. What treatment did she receive? Hopefully, an appropriate treatment for anaphylaxis.
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RE: Something just sounds weird about this...
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by Cro on June 2, 2008
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While it is possible that she was got into a nest of wasps or yellowjackets and received several stings, the statement from her husband tends to negate that.
"I could see blood flowing from her left finger. She started toward the house ... and then collapsed before she got to the door."
She also stated "something bit me," not "something stung me."
It is not likely that a bee or wasp sting would cause bleeding. None of the hundreds of yellowjacket stings that I have been nailed by have ever caused bleeding.
It would seem that the puncture wounds she recieved could easily be checked for depth. If they were caused by a snakes fang, they would have some depth to them.
Also, a Black Widow Spider might be a suspect. They are often found in gardens, have fangs long enough that might cause bleeding, and often make multiple bites. If two of those bites just happened to be fairly close together, they might be mistaken for fang punctures.
It would be interesting to know if she received AntiVenom and if she had somehow been exposed to snake venoms in the past. And it would be interesting to know if any venoms were found in her system.
There is a Snake venom-based anti-ageing cream on the market now. I wonder if there is any chance that she might have used that, and I wonder if that could cause sensitivity to snake venoms ?
Also, how far was it from the garden to the house? Perhaps it was a long hike. I also wonder if anyone searched for a snake in the garden area ?
Still a lot of unanswered questions on this one.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Something just sounds weird about this...
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by Phobos on June 2, 2008
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Jeff points out the important facts (No surprise here)about bite and treatments. Remember the venom was not really designed with humans in mind, they were designed for the prey on which the snake feeds. The faster the prey goes into shock, the better off the snakes is. No fighting back and getting injured, no prolonged struggle to burn energy, no long search for the dead prey.
All hot herpers should keep Epipens and Benedryl in their hot room or field pack. They should seek professional council to learn how and when to employ them in an emergency.
Al
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RE: Something just sounds weird about this...
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by FLherp on June 2, 2008
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The stingers of many hymenoptera are significantly larger than the chelicerae of a widow spider. The "bite" of most Crotalidae is more of a stab or sting than a bite using both the upper and lower jaws. The husband's description of "blood flowing" is a relative assessment. My assessment of blood flowing is likely to differ greatly. Did she actually say that something bit her, or is that the recollection of her husband modified after they have "determined" the injury to be caused by a snake? Perhaps she had some small cuts on her hands and forearms that were actively bleeding prior to the incident that are unrelated to the bite or sting. Was there evidence of bruising, formation of bullae, was there generalized swelling or was it a confluence of swelling? Most of this is speculation based on a fairly flimsy news report.
As Chad stated earlier, a bite from some timber or eastern diamondbacks cause a rapid enough decline without a need for a venous bite. It is quite alarming, actually and pretty consistent from one bite to the next.
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RE: Something just sounds weird about this...
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by LarryDFishel on June 2, 2008
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There were news reports some time in last few years of someone going down very rapidly and eventually dying from what was thought to be an allergic reaction to a copperhead bite. I don't remember what few details there were.
I did track down a tiny amount of additional info on the current case, one news article and a video (inteviewing the husband). I was wondering about the distance to the house too, but it's described as "less than 15 yards" in the article and the video apparently showing thier house shows a more or less standard, suburban house and yard.
As far as the bite vs. sting issue, I'm probably not the only person on the planet who tends to say I was "bitten" by a mosquito for instance. I don't think you can assign much meaning to either word, especially if she didn't see what did it.
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