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ANOTHER TIMBER VS. CANEBRAKE
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by fizzbob7 on January 10, 2003
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ok...i like timbers/canes....but i'm curious about something...i have been wanting to buy another adult female to breed next year, kinda want a yellow one...but anyway...i have seen adult wc canes for $40 and up, and i have been offered a "deal"(not in my opinion) for a wc "kentucky bloodline" yellow female timber for $150...no way...to an extent, wouldnt i just be paying for color....i know that certain colors are sometimes locale specific, but i am still unclear on the exact differences between canes and timbers....i have heard that dna is different and other things, but when u can only see the color and size as a difference and it isn't THAT big of a deal anyway, why should anyone pay that much more for a claimed timber as opposed to "just a cane"...i understand that the more a color is in demand, the more it will bring, but other than that, there isn't a way to know if i am getting a black timber or a black cane...it's just frustrating....
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RE: ANOTHER TIMBER VS. CANEBRAKE
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by TomT on January 11, 2003
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I guess I haven't seen that many of either, but I have never seen a black phase or a yellow phase Canebrake. Apparently in November of 2000, the Canebrake and the Timber rattlesnake(s) were reunited as one species again. The used to be a species (Crotalus horridus ...timber) and a subspecies (Canebrake was C.h. atricaudatis) excuse spelling mistakes, please... it's 5:30 in the morning LOL... anyway... they have been lumped into one species again. I don't know anything about anything apparently, but I've never seen a "Timber" rattlesnake get anywhere near as big as a canebrake, and I've never seen a canebrake that was Black, or Yellow... I do know that color doesn't mean spit when determining species. I can tell you this too... I Know a keeper that has kept both and he has no trouble getting timbers to live 20-25 years but he has trouble keeping canebrakes alive that long.... 150$ is a lot of money for a Timber rattlesnake. If you wait a few months, you'll be able to get plenty of them for half that price. There's a guy on these classifieds selling babies for like 50$ right now..... You are much better off raising babies if you want them for breeding anyway. One last note..... EVERY canebrake I've ever seen had a rusty-brown strip down the middle of it's back.... I've seen the same thing in a few timbers, but nothing like the same numbers... people would have you believe that these snakes are colored as part of "natural selection" and that the reason "yellow" and "black" phase canebrakes aren't found (maybe there have been some that I'm not aware of) is that they have been selected "out" of the genepool.... all of them? From what I've seen in Timber rattlesnakes, color is polymorphic, which means that you can breed two "black" ones and get all yellow babies..... if this is true, then how is it that the "coastal" phase timbers (also known as canebrakes) are all pinkish grey to tan in color???? I'm sure someone can explain this, but I can't.
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RE: ANOTHER TIMBER VS. CANEBRAKE
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by fizzbob7 on January 11, 2003
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yeah...when i hear canebrake, i think of the classic grayish-to pinkish color, dark velvet black chevrons, light belly and then the rusty stripe...when i hear timber, i just think of something thats darker or smaller...all the claimed timber i have seen are usually 3-4ft....i have one that is only 3-3.5ft and isnt growing much if at all....i think the separation was dumb...too many different colors and size can be for a lot of reasons that concern where they live...i wont pay $150 for one, unless its an albino...then i wouldnt mind....to me, they're the same snake from different regions, just like humans...from the west to the east coast, there are a lot of differences in the way we talk, dress, think, sleep pattern, food, etc....but all just because of where something is born....
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RE: ANOTHER TIMBER VS. CANEBRAKE
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by PIGMAN on January 14, 2003
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The main reason why timbers are more expensive is because most northern states that have timber rattlesnakes have now protected them driving the price up while most southern states have not protected the canebreak. Until NC protected horridus you could find timbers and canes for about the same price 35-75 dollars. When animals are protected it often increases the demand. Normally increasing the price as well. It is the same with the red pigmies. Untill 1988 before protected by regulation one could purchase red pigmies for 40-50 bucks and it wasn't desired in the pet trade as much until protection set in and drove the price up to 300 plus dollars for these snakes. That alone has put more pressure on this specie that it did not have to contend with before. Hope this helps
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RE: ANOTHER TIMBER VS. CANEBRAKE
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by fizzbob7 on January 14, 2003
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yeah....supply and demand definitely applies, but i just wonder how many mislabeled timbers and canes are out there...i know most would rather err on the side of selling a cane as a timber....i can't tell them apart except for when i know for sure where they are from.....
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RE: ANOTHER TIMBER VS. CANEBRAKE
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by PIGMAN on January 15, 2003
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Well its hard to say. Throughout canebreak range many people call them timbers and do not use the word canebreak. Most of the dealers are able to tell the difference and if you know your locality that would help too. Western horridus appear to look like canebreaks due to living in similar habitat as the eastern cousins. The timbers of the mountains and east coast canebreaks are closer relatives than the more similar appperaing canebreaks to the west living through out much or the Mississippi valley. It seems that the horseshoe shape range of the canebreaks would be closer genetically than the upland timbers just by apperance but DNA annalysis show that western and eastern populations are more different than timbers and east coast canebreaks. I always like to keep the two seperate as well as the western canebreak, depending how important localities are to you depends on where and who you get your snakes from. Personally I am a locality person that likes to keep population genetics intact every horridus populations seems to vary alittle on lacality and habitat. I have always said if they lump the two subspecies together then they should lump all the copperheads as the same as well. Adaptations to environment is what has broken species into subspecies and to get an Idea of what snake and where it is from I believe they should seperate each specie so others have an idea of the snake one may be talking about and wher it lives. Maybe this made some since.
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RE: ANOTHER TIMBER VS. CANEBRAKE
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by fizzbob7 on January 15, 2003
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yeah it made sense....why cant each species be color coded...that'd be cool...too easy though...huh...
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RE: ANOTHER TIMBER VS. CANEBRAKE
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by PIGMAN on January 20, 2003
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They have classified them as the same but anyone who works with the specie on a regular basis can easily see the differences between the two. There are more differences in the canebreaks and timbers than there is with northern copperheads and southern copperheads and many other species and subspecies. Even though they are lumped together every one who works with these snakes will most likley continue to seperate the two subspecies by the common names.
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Timber VS. Canebrake Continuation
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by Buzztail1 on January 20, 2003
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The debate on the subspeciation of Crotalus horridus has raged for more than a decade.
For example: The 1975 edition of "A Field Guide To Reptiles And Amphibians of Eastern/Central North America" by Roger Conant list the Canebrake Rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus atricaudatus) as a separate subspecies and the 1991 edition of "A Field Guide To Reptiles And Amphibians of Eastern/Central North America" by Roger Conant and Joseph Collins lists the "southern variation" and "western variation" of Timber Rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus) with no subspecies.
This shows us that the combining of C. horridus is not new.
The debate and scientific studies continue with many afficianados eagerly awaiting the publishing of each new paper.
I would like to point out that even if subspecies are not recognized, the severity of the bite from a S. Georgia "Canebrake Rattlesnake" may present severely different consequences from the bite of a Pennsylvania "Timber Rattlesnake", regardless of what you decide to call them.
As to what people demand in price for individuals, if you want that animal bad enough, you pay what they ask or haggle if you can. There are plenty of CB "Timber Rattlesnakes" at the various venomous expos to pick and choose from. I actually recommend buying from a breeder if you care what the animal will look like full-grown. Calling them all "Timber Rattlesnakes" has certainly confused what you might receive if you buy an animal "sight-unseen".
Karl H. Betz
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