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RE: Copperheads and Cottonmouths - mDNA work publi
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by theemojohnm on August 3, 2008
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I agree that it was a very well-written post with personal "humor" thrown in at the same time. =)
That is exactly what I was gettin at, with lack of a better way to say it!
" ...a bull snake is very obviously different from a rat snake, regardless of how similar the DNA might be. Can't we just satisfy ourselves with assimilating the new knowledge that these species are genetically similar without having to totally reclassify and rename them? "
" Phylogenetics may hold that there are no canebrake rattlesnakes, but I will continue to differentiate between canebrakes and normal timbers. This is not only based on pattern and color - the shapes of their heads differ, and so do their personalities. "
" I'm not denying the validity of DNA analysis one bit, and the information it provides is certainly useful and interesting, but I just don't think that's all there is and that everything else should be thrown out the window because of sudden advances being made in an exciting new field. "
All are EXCELLENT POINTS!
I more I have been able to find out about this new work, the more interested I become. And I guess I have mixed feelings because we really dont know how far this "re-arrangement" will go quite yet.
I do believe the points made in Freds post are excellent points, and is what I myself thought when actually hearing that "they" really have solid findings to re-arrange the copper and cotton populations, and it is happening for sure.
I think that may have been one of the best posts I have seen on a herp forum ever, and I think that is really one of the best reasons these forums exist!
~John.
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RE: Copperheads and Cottonmouths - mDNA work publi
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by FSB on August 3, 2008
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Well, GEE, thanks a bunch, Greg, but I have to admit that I feel surrounded by some pretty high-powered, august company on this forum, and I say a little prayer that I'm not sticking my foot in it every time I hit the "post" button. Being an old-school sort of naturalist of the self-taught variety, I've gained an awful lot of knowledge and insight from reading posts by the likes of John Z., Randal, Jared and a whole bunch of others... For the record, this is the only snake forum that I regularly read and feel compelled to participate in, and it's no doubt the best one on the web for me.
However, to prove that I'm not just opposed to new things in a knee-jerk sort of way, I'd like to reiterate that I am indeed fascinated by the new relationships being revealed by mDNA analysis, if a little perturbed by having to constantly relearn taxonomies that I thought I had down as a kid. As any musician will tell you, learning something new isn't half as difficult as UN-learning something old! So, I'm still mostly of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" persuasion.
For my part, I'd really like to see what comes up when this analysis is applied to the Wagler's viper, Tropilodaemus (formerly... Trimeresurus) wagleri.
Has anyone ever seen or heard of any cross-breeding amongst those three spectacularly distinct phases, Sumatran, Sulawesi and Kalimantan? Not that I'd really want to see it - I love them the way they are, but if they're all indeed one and the same species, it follows that they should readily breed, right? I mean, it wouldn't exactly qualify as "hybridization," at least not under the current classification, but it still seems like it would be a strange and unnatural sort of thing to do. Anyway, they seem a lot more different than northern and southern copperheads, which have always been (up until now) separate subspecies.
I would love to breed these snakes, but males seem to be extremely hard to find, and I'm also rather paranoid of southeast Asian snakes because of their notorious parasite loads and propensity to carry deadly viruses. Still, I couldn't resist picking up a gorgeous Sumatran female at Spartanburg a couple of years ago (she has perfect little parietal "f"s on either side of her head, above the venom glands, that look just like the f-holes on a fiddle). I know, beware of snakes that have your initials on them, and I usually am!. However, shortly after I got her home a friend related how a Wagler's viper had almost wiped out his entire collection with ophidian paramyxovirus, and so I kept her quarantined for over 90 days in abject fear. She's doing just great now, but I don't want to get any more of these lovelies, though I love them dearly, until I can find a source I'm very sure of. The only available males I have even seen recently are all Sulawesi phase, and like I said, I'm a bit hesitant to cross them up, and I don't want to take any chances with imports.
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RE: Copperheads and Cottonmouths - mDNA work publi
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by ALA_snake33 on August 3, 2008
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John, this really throws the screwdriver into my work lately. If you remember I was talking about the Eastern and Western Sub-species (Cottonmouth) in my area which was and (still is) thought to be an integration area, having micro habitat preferences. Ohh well, everything has to come to a end sometime “LOL”.
Sad Sad Day
Be Safe Ya’ll, Happy Herping: Wally
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RE: Copperheads and Cottonmouths - mDNA work publi
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by Cro on August 4, 2008
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Wally, even if "they" change the official names of the cottonmouths, you will still be able to find ones that have that "Eastern" look, and ones that have that "Western" look, and it is still very possible that you might find micro-habitat preferences between them.
Something has caused the differences we see in the coloration, and habitat preference could be a very big part of it.
You should continue researching this, although you might wind up comparing light colored cottonmouth habitat preferences with dark colored cottonmouth preferences, instead of Eastern verses Western.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Copperheads and Cottonmouths - mDNA work publi
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by ALA_snake33 on August 5, 2008
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John I see what you mean, and I will continue with my research “Count on that”.
I also see what all of you mean by things being hard to keep up with, its hard enough to keep up with Scientific Names as it is, but when they start changing them every 10-15 Years it starts playing with your mind. Shoot, by the time I learn the ones that are already in the Books, it all changes again.
Be Safe Ya’ll, Happy Herping: Wally
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