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RE: immune?
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by theemojohnm on August 13, 2008
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That is probably a very controversial question.
I'm sure there are a few you probably agree that immunities probably do build up after time. (Bill Haust) perhaps..???.....
In my experience however, keepers who come in contact with venom (skin contact) in many cases develope allergies to the venom, resulting in bites being much worse when the keeper is finally bit.
I know of many cases where such a conclusion had been made. Most times I hear reports of this happening with the more "wild elapids", mostly spitting cobras.
I am not sure what to think of this this toipic, as my knowledge of toxinology is very limited.
Al (Phobos) would be a good person to talk to about this question. I am actually hoping he posts on this topic.
I am interested also in others opinions on here...
~John.
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RE: immune?
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by Phobos on August 14, 2008
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Something does not add up....here Alphadog, for someone who works as a venom extractor at a Zoo you are asking some very basic questions.
Al
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RE: immune?
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by FLherp on August 14, 2008
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You cannot develop immunity without exposure to an antigen, in this case venom. The folks I know that perform venom extractions usually develop allergic reactions to the venom due to constant exposure to liquid and lyophilized venoms. Very few of these people attempt to immunize themselves in attempts to provide any protection against the species with which they work. Bill Haast did use a variety of elapid venoms in a regimen of immunization. I assume, but cannot verify, that the venoms used had little or no proteolytic activity.
There are a few others who immunize themselves to aid in surviving an envenoming, supposing that the same principle used to produce antivenoms will provide some measure of protection should they be the recipient of a bite. There is some ongoing research to investigate the validity of this, although there is a paucity of published information. The animals used in the production of antivenom sera are hyperimmunized to produce large amounts of antibodies, I have no idea if hyperimmunization is the goal of these practices in humans.
There is the potential for the development of allergic reactions due to the constant exposure to venom via immunization. Safe handling practices and access to antivenoms may be the better way to protect yourself from a bite or avoid the more devestating effects of an envenoming. Antivenom may be required in any case, as sufficient antibodies may not be present to protect the bitten person. Many snakebites are survivable without antivenom although there may be some lifelong morbidity due to the damage caused by the venom, paricularly proteolytic toxins and pre-synaptic neurotoxins.
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RE: immune?
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by FSB on August 14, 2008
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I agree with Al and John. Plus, the goal of having "every species" is just not realistic, even for the largest zoos. (By the way, John, did you get my reply to your email?)
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RE: immune?
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by alphadogg on August 14, 2008
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I just started ! and i asked the zoo's specialist and he said he was not too sure!! and as for the every species, i want to keep every main species, of venomoids, not subspecies :p thankx all you have been a great help!!!
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RE: immune?
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by theemojohnm on August 14, 2008
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Al,
That is EXACTLY what I thought. I think alot of times I'm too hesitant to post things I feel dont sound right.
Glad somebody caught it. LOL...
~John.
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RE: immune?
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by FSB on August 14, 2008
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So sorry, but I really think that all experienced keepers who value their collections and the privelege to keep venomous snakes responsibly for personal study and enlightenment have every right to be concerned about these things. Venom extraction is by far the most hazardous form of work involving these animals, and many very experienced keepers, while it may be well within their capabilities, aren't even going near that unless there is a very good reason for it, and the only real reason for doing it is the collection of venom for serious, legitimate research or antivenin production. The production of quality venom for this purpose requires access to at least thousands of dollars worth of laboratory equipment and a huge quantity of snakes, and the facility to properly house and care for them. The practice, if not done correctly, can also really harm the snake, which is of some concern to users of this forum, if not in many other places!
Very few people are actually involved in this business, and any of them would, well, how do I put this gently... any of them would probably word your original question, if they even had to ask it in the first place (which isn't likely), in a more, er, professional and coherent way. The use of the letter "u" for the pronoun "you" for example, makes me think of someone probably keeping cobras in his cluttered bedroom with Metallica posters on the wall. (Don't take that personally - I'm just being rhetorical here). I just don't see Jim Harrison writing a message that way, sorry!
I'm actually thinking of this 16 year old kid who once invited me over to see his snakes. He lived in a small duplex apartment with his grandmother in a well-populated neighborhood. The best way to describe his demeanor is probably "addled." In his cluttered bedroom with, you guessed it, Metallica posters on the wall, he threw open the folding doors of his cluttered closet to reveal an adult albino monocle cobra running around loose. I closed the doors and berated him severely, and probably should have reported him, but that was many years ago and I have never been that sort of person. Anyway, I'm sure he was hurt and still hates me (if he's still alive) but JEEZ!
The cobra wasn't a venomoid, but by bringing up that term, you really aren't helping the situation, and in fact, are opening whole 'nother big can of worms that has already been opened and emptied out here many times before. I abhor this snake-mutilating practice about as much as I do the instant pickling of live, healthy specimens for museums, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
I think it would just be a big help to all concerned if everyone could just fill out their profiles as completely and as accurately as possible. And bear in mind, when asking these questions, that words like "extraction" and "venomoid" are loaded terms, and that everyone's nerves are already pretty much on edge by all the negative press snakes have been getting lately. We just don't want to see anyone else get hurt... or killed.
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