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invenomation
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by ibrake4snakes on August 22, 2008
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what species of snake has the most painful venom affect requarding invenomation? The burrowing asp (stilleto snake) from africa?
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RE: invenomation
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by Rob_Carmichael on August 22, 2008
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Andrew, that's a very difficult question to answer. The simple answer is "the most painful bite is the one that just bit you"...I've spoken to people who got bit by a copperhead who said it was the most agonizing pain they've ever suffered. Same for Timber Rattlers. In fact, some of the stories I've heard suggest that some of our very own North American species inflict far more painful bites than exotic species - but, this is very, very subjective. Everyone has different tolerances for pain. Just because a snake may possess extremely toxic venom, it doesn't equate directly to equal levels of pain. Generally, those bites that affect circulation can be painful due to the necrotizing affects of the venom.
If Jim Harrison, or Kristen, from the Kentucky Reptile Zoo reads this I'm sure they can provide some expert opinions.
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
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RE: invenomation
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by FSB on August 22, 2008
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Andrew, this is a very subjective question, like asking "how high is up?" Drop for drop toxicities have been measured and compared in various ways, such as the LD-50 method using mice, but even these measurements only provide a general guideline and are far from perfect (since not everyone is a mouse).
There is really no way to objectively measure pain. In general, if venoms are divided broadly into the haemotoxic and neurotoxic categories, snakes with predominately haemotoxic venom, which causes a great deal of tissue damage, edema (swelling) and other destructive localized effects, are going to be the ones with the more painful bites. Bites from snakes with highly neurotoxic venoms are often reported to be virtually painless, with no symptoms occurring for hours, followed by sudden and catastrophic failure of the cardio-pulmonary and renal systems leading to death. Some say this is why Cleopatra chose the "asp" (probably an Egyptian cobra) as a relatively painless but effective way out.
I can only thank God that I'm not qualified to answer your question... only a person who has been envenomated by (and survived) a large number of venomous snakes of different species (such as Bill Haast) could really attest to which ones were the most painful, but even then, it would be one person's subjective opinion - subject to his or her own individual tolerance for pain.
My brother often relates the tale of an old Texas snake handler (and mentor of his) who was bitten by a large western diamondback during one of his "milking shows" back in the early 70's. He went on with his show, as if nothing had happened, relating various factoids about snakes, etc. when a woman in the crowd noticed a trickle of blood running down his arm. She screamed: "My God, did he bite you?"
"Yes ma'am," the man drawled, "and if anyone's interested, rattlesnake venom burns like hell."
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RE: invenomation
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by Crotalusssp on August 22, 2008
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I agree with John 100%. Pain is very subjective and the most painful bite would be the one you just received. Avoid all of them!!!!
Charles
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RE: invenomation
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by Cro on August 22, 2008
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Andrew, what the others have said is right on.
The interesting thing is that the Atractaspis "Mole" vipers of Africa do have a reputation for producing a very painfull bite.
C.J.P. Ionides mentioned this in one of his books about snake hunting in Africa.
Because no Anti-Venom is available for these snakes, the bitten person would have to "ride out" the bite for a long, unpleasent time until the venom wore off and was broken down by the body.
15 Species of these snakes are recognized. I used to have one in my section at the Atlanta Zoo, and it was a very interesting animal to work with. The way it "hooked back" with a fang when it was fed a mouse was pretty cool to watch. The fangs were quite long for a fairly small snake.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: invenomation
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by iLuVeNoM on August 22, 2008
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Ok...we all know about subjectivity and personal tolerance or lack thereof. Now let's make this fun and try to answer the young man's question.
Which snake/s would you LEAST like to get bitten by considering only the pain factor?(no death)
Well Andrew, I personally would pick a Gabby because of the long fangs (even dry stabs hurt), tissue destroying venom, and lots of it. I guess also the Bushmaster for the same reasons, or a large DB. I also heard the lanceheads like Terciopelos are N-A-S-T-Y sore; probably for the reasons John mentioned - victim cannot get to antivenin and has to deal with the pain.
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RE: invenomation
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by Cro on August 22, 2008
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This thread reminds me a bit about the Black Widow Spider bite.
Although the bite in some is not detected for many hours, often people who are bitten have a lot of immediate pain, and other unpleasent symptoms like abdominal cramps. Some of the folks I know who were bitten describe the pain is the worse they have ever had in their lives.
It is not likely a Black Widow Spidey bite will kill you, if you are an adult, however, it does not sound like much fun. Most bitten folks go to a hospital, and soon after the Anti-Venom is administered, most of the symptoms and pain go away.
Because I have no medical insurance, and little money, if I were bitten by a Black Widow Spidey, ( I have tons of them here on the property, so the chance of getting bitten is fairly high), I would probably try to ride it out with Benadryl, and Advil.
It would probably not be a lot of fun, but I have a fairly high threshold to pain, and would probably be able to deal with it. I would probably call one of my friends who is an invenomation specialist, and ask them what else I might do help ride out the bite.
Just an outside observation on the pain factor concerning venomous critter bites and such.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: invenomation
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by iLuVeNoM on August 22, 2008
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Damn John, you eat nails for breakfast too?
I think I could ride out extreme pain to my arms or legs. But pain to my head or stomach, I'm a big baby who would need his wife's tender touch.
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RE: invenomation
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by theemojohnm on August 22, 2008
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WOW.. John!
lol... Morphine for me! =) LOL...
Advil probably won’t cut it for me..
And I have an EXTREMELY high pain tolerance, but I have heard Black Widow bites can be VERY painful.
Glad they are not too common at all here! ;)
And, the original question relating to snakes is VERY hard to answer!
Although, species that share the same general type of venom is as close as you will get to an “accurateZ” answer. And I just had this conversation today with a friend of mine.. Kinda crazy!
Personally, If the bite were to be fatal due to whatever circumstance. : I would rather be bitten by one of the primarily neurotoxic elapids than by MOST of the hemotoxic pit-vipers of the US, and even alot of true vipers from other parts of the world with their "tissue destroying" venoms.
Of course this scenario is only a "what if" situation. But, If had no medical attention available, I would rather be bitten by some primarily neurotoxic elapid and die with mild to moderate pain, than be bitten by one of hemotoxic vipers and slowly rot from the local bite site to internal organ tissue! OUCH!
Even though, alot of keepers regard many of the elapids as the more "dangerous" due to the fact that their venoms can be more "deadly" drop for drop. The bigger risk in ,my opinion, is that many of the elapids tend to be ALOT more "agile" and quick than our more heavy-bodied pit-vipers. Do not underestimate our North American pit-vipers for sure! lol..
And actually, I have barely ANY knowledge on the "Mole Viper", but every account I've seen published on the species gave little more information than the bite are considered EXTREMELY PAINFUL.
~John.
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RE: invenomation
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by Cro on August 22, 2008
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One of the most interesting descriptions of a snakebite I have ever heard, was from Dean Ripa, a few years back when he was the guest speaker for the banquet at the fall Columbia Reptile Show.
He was talking about one of his Bushmaster Bites, and he described it as having a little man repeatedly punching him in the gut or stomach time after time after time, after time. Did not sound like too much fun. He did not go into projectile vomiting and other things associated with Bushmaster bites, which is probably good.( We had just finished eating, or were still finishing, a greasy Chinese Buffett, LOL ). As far as I know, he has survived more Bushmaster bites than any other human.
He summed up his talk to the herpers, by saying, "If you have not been bitten yet, then you are not handling your venomous snakes enough." I think that was a joke. Anyway, it was a great talk by a very experienced herper, and one that would be fun to hear more of in the future. Hopefully, the Repticon Team might consider bringing him back as the guest speaker for this falls Repticon Show in Columbia.
As far as pitviper bites, I have seen first hand several folks get bitten over the years, and none of them seemed to be having much fun.
Best Regards John Z
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