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RE: captive bred wild caught
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by Cro on September 17, 2008
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Arin, It is quite possible. In captivity, snakes are often fed rodents. In the wild, many venomous snakes eat lizards, frogs, and the occasional rodent.
The components of venom that works best on lizards and frogs are different than the components of venom that work best for rodents.
You have heard about the type A and type B venoms that are found in different populations of some rattlesnake populations, like Mojave Rattlesnakes, Canebrake (Timber) Rattlesnakes, etc. The type A venoms tend to be more Neurotoxic, and the type B venoms tend to be more Hemotoxic and Cytotoxic. We can also find populations that have mixed A & B toxins.
What some of the newer research is showing, is that the composition of venom can change somewhat over the life of a snake.
When a snake is young, and eating mostly lizards, the venom in some snakes will have higher neurotoxic factors, that work well on lizard and frog prey.
But, as the snake gets older, and begins preying on more rodents, the venom can actually change it's composition to some extent, and produce more of the Hemotoxic and Cytotoxic factors, and less of the Neurotoxic factors.
The interesting thing about this though, is that if the rodent food source becomes scarce, and the older snake has to start preying on lizards again, the research is showing that the composition of the venom can go back toward the more Neurotoxic venom that it had when it was young, and eating mostly liaards.
All venoms are complex mixtures of with different compositions of toxins, and the levels of these different toxins can vary between individual snake populations, and even individual snakes within those populations, and those venoms can change back and forth to some extent over time.
So, getting back to your original question, if a captive snake was fed only rodents, some of the newer, ongoing research would tend to suggest that the composition of the venom could "stabolize" to work best for rodent prey. A wild caught snake of the same species might have venom that is quite different, due to differences in food preference, or even the habitat that it came from.
Hope this helps.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: captive bred wild caught
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by Cro on September 17, 2008
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Arin, I do not think that the mice being frozen / thawed or live would make much of a difference.
As far as changes in toxicity, that could be a fairly large change, from what I am hearing from some of the research folks. It might be a couple of years before a lot of the new research get published.
The biggest problem is that a bite could produce symptoms that are not typical or usually associated with that particular type of snake.
The researchers are finding some fairly interesting things. For instance, lets say that most of the Western Diamondbacked Rattlesnakes that are used for making Antivenom come from South Texas. While that would be fine if you were bitten by a South Texas WDB, a bite from an Arizona, New Mexico, or Oklahoma WDB might not be nuturalized nearly as well with that same Antivenom, as the venoms used in the production of the Antivenom differ a lot, even though all the snakes are Western Diamondbacked Rattlesnakes.
So, to make a good Antivenom, that will work over a wide population of snakes, you would want to milk WDB snakes from Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, etc. That way, you would get a good sample of all the variations that there are in the venom.
The same thing should be done with the Eastern Diamondbacks, and Mojive Rattlesnakes and Cottonmouths that are used in Antivenom production. In some cases, you can have one population of a rattlesnake with a type A venom, and just a few miles down the road, the population could have type B venom.
A lot more needs to be learned about the venoms in localized populations of snakes.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: captive bred wild caught
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by Parcelmouth on September 17, 2008
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There was alot of good information in the posts on this forum.
you also might want to look up papers by John C. Perez, and associates. They did some interesting work comparing venoms of Crotalus helleri( or C. viridis helleri I am not up on which is current official name). also comparing effectiveness of antivenoms to neautralize said venoms.
to give a VERY general synopsis a great deal of variety of venom components and activities were found in individual specimens of that species. i remember one case in which one snake was milked and there was a visible difference in the color of the venom from each fang, and when tested it was found that there was in deed a great deal of difference in the venoms from the two venom glands of the same snake at the same milking.
also just for kicks try searching for antivipmyn
there is as I recall at least a few postings right here in past forums.
As a side note I had a chance to speak to the former curator of reptiles at Audubon Zoo New Orleans. I was told there protocols called for use of antivipmyn as opposed to crofab in North American pit viper envenomations.
However I also got an education in how zoos and museums that keep exotic venomous animals have to have a special agreement with the medical facilities that allow the hospitals and doctors to use non USDA approved drugs such as antivenoms for animals not native to USA.
Anyway I suppose I went a little overboard but I am really interested in venom toxicology and used to keep up with it.
The previous posts were very good. No 2 bites are ever the same even if they were from the same snake. So many variables. From specific location of animal, as different populations have different venoms, different members of a population have differences in venoms, and even opposing venom glands can produce different variations in venom components. Also venom is constantly evolving and venom properties can change quickly (from and evolutionary point of view it does not take generations it happens to a degree in the lifetime of a specimen)
try looking for
John C Perez
Brain Fry www.venomdoc.com
Snake Venom Poisoning by Findlay E. Russell
its an old book but interesting and full of good stuff.
The Subtle Beast by Andre Menez
also had some interesting toxicology in it.
and
antivipmyn
just my .02
J.S. Harrison
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RE: captive bred wild caught
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by FSB on September 18, 2008
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Cro, wouldn't it seem that the type of prey ingested by the snake is going to have an affect on the constituency of its venom? Since venom is comprised primarily of proteins, it follows that its source must be the snake's food. In other words, the snake's venom doesn't spontaneously undergo a change in order to be more effective against a different type of prey (my biology professor would have called that teleology), but the makeup of the venom would over some period of time be altered by the new prey itself. It seems reasonable that the ingestion of lizards would result in a venom more effective against lizards, while the converse would be true for rodents, as if the prey actually provides the venom "recipe" for its own undoing. As Spock would say, "fascinating."
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RE: captive bred wild caught
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by Cro on September 18, 2008
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Fred, Yep, I thought that is what I sorta said, LOL. But, I was also all over several topics that are all kind of tied togehter.
I agree that is is a very fascinating topic, and am looking forward to some of the new research being published.
Ummm... Spock was you favorite Star Trek character, followed by Scotty, Bones, and Sulu, I bet ? And Captain Kirk rated way down the list ????? Just wondering, ??? LOL. (All the young folks here are probably wondering "what is a Star Trek) LOL.
Perhaps the snakes have some kind of "receptors" that can determine the charistics of the major prey animals being eaten, and trigger changes in the venom to compensate, so that it will work better on those animals ? The protiens and amino acids of cold blooded prey would be different than those in warm blooded prey. This would imply a "smart" digestive system, and that is exactly what the newest research is starting to show.
If we humans eat mostly starches or fats, do our digestive enzymes change over time to be better able to better digest starches or fats ? I wonder if anyone has ever studied that ? We do know that if we consume mostly protiens (atkins diet) we change the way the body stores fat, and the fuel changes to burn Ketone bodies and stored fat is used up. That would imply that our digestive systems are "smart" and can change.
The analogy of this in humans might be quite humerous. Lets say, someone loves eating "Micky D's" or "Taco Smell" every day. Will we see in time the human digestive system changing and evolving do digest weird foreign protiens, LOL . Or if I keep eating a Reubin Sandwich every day, will I eventually start talking in Yiddish ?
Best Regards John Z
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