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toxicity chart
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by tz on October 22, 2008
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seems that i saw on this site a chart listing venom type, ammount injected in average bite, ammount to be lethal in a human,and other info. I was looking a while back and I thought this was the page I found it on to prove to an uninformed person about the dangers of a cottonmouth bite vs a copperhead bite.
can you point me to this chart here or somewhere else
thanks
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RE: toxicity chart
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by tj on October 22, 2008
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What would those dangers be and what do you expect to prove in a comparison?
Do you feel because a snake has a more potent venom that it is more dangerous? Ask one of the many people who are bitten by captive copperhead's each year because they've become complacent around a "mildly" venomous copperhead. Then, ask which one is more dangerous. The one you're going to be cautious around, or the one you're not? Whichever you choose, both could cause you to lose a finger, and both are capable of a fatal bite. Don't let an LD50 chart be a deciding factor of what is more dangerous or what has the more toxic venom in humans.
Dangerous is a term where all variables need to come into play with hots. Size, venom toxicity, venom amount, willingness to bite, speed, effectiveness of AV. An LD50 chart will give you no more than a venom amount. They are a waste of time and grant money.
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RE: toxicity chart
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by Cro on October 22, 2008
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Tom makes a good point about LD 50 Charts.
The idea that the amount of venom that will kill 50% of a group of mice whose combined weight is 1/2 kilogram, does not necessicarely relate to the real world conditions when the same venom is injected in a snake bite into a human.
Every snake bite is an individual emergency, and should be treated as such. Every snake bite will have many individual differences due to factors like the weight of the victim, the health of the victim, the location of the bite, the health of the snake, the amount of venom injected, the tissues that the venom is injected into, seasonal differences in venom concentration, etc, etc, etc.
You might get a mild bite from a timber rattlesnake, and a fatal bite from a copperhead. Or, vice-versa.
Some of the most deadly venoms in LD 50 Charts are from Elapids, and even though those bites involve venoms that are drop for drop very deadly, some of those bites are also the most survivable bites, if a Compression Bandage is quickly used until Antivenom is found. The venoms of many vipers that rate much lower on the LD 50 Chart are often much more likely to kill someone, due to tissue damage, and cardio damage.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: toxicity chart
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by Chris_Harper on October 22, 2008
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http://www.venomousreptiles.org/pages/venchart
It's a general concept, and I don't particularly disagree with it. There are a lot of variables however, so it's not exactly carved in stone.
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RE: toxicity chart
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by tz on October 23, 2008
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Man, I agree with you( and everyone else) that the snake in the weeds by my foot is way more dangerous than the exotic snake way off in some foreign land. The know it all at the office was saying that copperhead venom was more toxic than cottonmouth venom. I guess I used the word "dangerous" and that could mean anything. I did a quick google and found a chart that listed the snakes and all of the info. I have never looked at it again but always lurk this site and assumed the chart was on this site. I wanted to see something after seeing "I was bitten" on tv and tried to find that chart again because I had never heard of a stilleto snake. I do not keep snakes any more and never had hots. I had a retic for a long time and raised red tail boas. My retic was 16 feet long and I got shipped overseas for work and I donated it to the Baton Rouge zoos new reptile area. I do come in contact with rattlers while deer hunting, canebreak/timber. Its south Louisiana so you cant turn around without a cottonmouth around and seems lately I have been finding small copperheads in my woodpile while working. I dont claim to be an expert thats why I come hear to read and ask questions, its better than staying at a Holiday Inn express.
Thanks
tz
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RE: toxicity chart
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by tj on October 23, 2008
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"The know it all at the office was saying that copperhead venom was more toxic than cottonmouth venom"
On an LD50 chart, a copperhead may be more toxic than a cottonmouth. The effects in humans would nix tha point. Take a look at where lachesis are on most LD50 charts. The point I was trying to make is that there are people who will let their guard down with a copperhead because of their mildly venomous label, but not with a cottonmouth because people know of the necrotic effects of their venom and their "aggressive" nature. Which would be more dangerous, a snake where you feel too comfortable with because you feel the venom isn't that significant or a snake that will keep you to focus on it? Most of the bites that have been occuring are by snakes that are seemingly placid or snakes where people feel venom isn't of a concern.
Nothing is more dangerous than a keeper who underestimates the snake or doesn't respect what their capabilities are. A keeper plays an important role in how dangerous a snake can be....although, certain snakes are going to be a handful no matter what.In the field, a cottonmouth would probably be more dangerous than a copperhead if bitten. In captivity, a lack approach will get someone bit, and there are far more bites in captivity from copperheads than from cottonmouths. Which one is more dangerous? Even though I always recommend copperhead's as a good starter hot, I'm always giving the benefit of the doubt that the person isn't a complete moron who can handle that snake. A responsible keeper would nullify any dangers with a copperhead.
On an effect level in humans, cottonmouths would be a more serious bite, but both would suck.
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RE: toxicity chart
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by tj on October 23, 2008
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BTW, I know you're not looking at it as a keeper's standpoint and only on which is more venomous/dangerous.
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