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force feeding
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by danny37 on October 23, 2008
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i just aquired a couple w/c prarie rattlers a few weeks ago. now, i have been trying to get them to eat live mice but they havent taken any yet. one of the snakes looks to be only 3 or 4 months old, while the other looks to be a sub-adult. what i am wondering is how long i should let them go before i consider force feeding? they are w/c so i am wondering if they are getting ready for hibernation, they were brought from new mexico.i have allready tried putting them in a small container,1 with a fuzzy, and 1 with a small mouse. i left them for hours and still nothing. i have a pinkie pump that i used to feed a copper head some years ago, but i am not looking forward to handling them,especialy the small one. anyone that has some advice i would greatly apreciate it...thanks, Danny
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RE: force feeding
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by BobH on October 23, 2008
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Danny, I would seriously consider brumating them if only for 6-8 weeks. WC this time of year are already in hibernating mode. I think for these snakes this would be a better option than force feeding. Hope this helps.
Bob
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RE: force feeding
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by theemojohnm on October 23, 2008
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Danny,
I would try to hold off a while before force-feeding. In fact, I VERY rarely force-feed anything. It may not be too healthy, but those little guys should be able to go a long time without eating.
Even if they are wild-caught, I would try F/T rodents, as opposed to live, or freshly-killed rodents. I would even scent the mice with something like an anole or other small lizard or frog well before I would consider force-feeding.
JohnZ (Cro) has come up with a technique using sea-salt to stimulate a stronger feeding response and "hold" that I use on any stubborn American pitviper. The salt seems to bring out the natural scent of the rodent. But, I'll leave it to John to give more info on this if he feels it may help.
Brumation may be an option, and could possibly be a very good idea, but I would question several factors before doing this. Do you know the last time the snakes have eaten? (I'm assuming if they are w/c, you dont). Are the snakes at a healthy weight yet, or very thin?
If putting these guys into brumation for the winter, it is a good idea to try and assure that they have enough nutrients, and have been feeding good before you got them. However, you cannot feed, and then put them into brumation too early, you have to allow some time for that food to pass.
Perhaps you can upload a picture to the gallery on this site and post a link to it here, so folks can see what the weight of these guys is, and if its acceptable.
I do not feel brumating them is absolutely necessary, but it may be a good idea. The LAST thing I would do is force-feed ANY snake, only as a last resort. The stress associated with force-feeding may make these snake not want to eat on their own, even making things worse. If you have to force feed on a regular basis, the stress is going to affect them greatly. You have to take these things slow with w/c snakes. I would try John's salt technique, the a few different food items or scenting if that doesn’t work.
I can give you the details on the salt technique, but I'm sure John will post and lend better advice than me. I just have a personal theory, and many agree, force-feeding should be avoided at all costs.
Hope this helps.
Take Care.
~John Mendrola
(Pennsylvania Woodland Herpetological).
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RE: force feeding
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by danny37 on October 24, 2008
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ok, well i have never heard of the salt thing before, i happen to have some sea salt in my kitchen. i could use the details though. the snakes look to be in good health. the larger one is at a decent weight, he has deficated since i aquired him. the smaller one is a different story, and he (or she) is the one i am worried about. it was definatly dehidrated when it arrived, loose skin and all. it has since plumped up somewhat since it now has a constant fresh water supply, but looks a little to thin to me. i will post pics when i get a chance to. i know force feeding is stressful, its the last thing that i want to do, i will try what you suggest with the salt and scenting before i take more drastic measures. thanks for the advice, i will keep you posted, also i need the details about the sea salt method...Thanks, Danny
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RE: force feeding
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by Cro on October 24, 2008
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Danny, my Sea Salt Metheod is simple, all you do is dissolve about a half teaspoon of Sea Salt in a cup of warm water, and soak the food item in that for about 10 minutes. If it cools down, put it in the microwave for a few seconds. You want the water temp to be about 110 degrees F. It is best to use crystal Sea Salt, like Celtic or Flour de sel if possible, as many sea salts have added iodine and anti caking agents, and those should be avoided.
Anyway, offer the food item dripping wet and warm with a pair of forceps. The idea is to get the snake to strike the food item. Immediatly after the snake strikes, drop the food item and walk away. Some snakes will hold on, and others will just strike and drop the food item.
Leave the cage alone for 24 hours. Hopefully, the snake will eat. If not, then repeat the procedure each day, over several days. Usually, this will work to help get difficult snakes to eat. It is really similar to stimulating taste receptors, just like humans do when they sprinkle salt on a steak or baked potato.
What Dr. Bob said about the snakes wanting to hibernate / brumate is important, and nature is telling them to do this. Wild caught snakes often act this way. If you can not get them eating, you will need to brumate them for the winter, and hope for the best. They will loose a bit more weight while brumating, but should be ready to eat when they are warmed up in early Spring.
If they do eat for you, you need to make sure that the food item has passed through them before they are brumated, as a food item can rot inside of a snake that goes into hibernation with a meal inside.
Let us know what you decide to do, and if the Salt Metheod works for you. It has worked for many folks, but probably will not work every time.
As others have said, I would avoid force feeding. If the snakes have not eaten in a couple of weeks, then it would be best to go ahead and brumate them for the Winter, and try feeding again in the Spring.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: force feeding
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by danny37 on October 24, 2008
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ok, thanks for the info. i will give that a shot. i have the celtic sea salt you speak of. my wife bought it to go on some "master cleanse" diet that she only lasted a day or two on, so now i have 50$ worth of salt in my kitchen,hopefully this works for me. i will keep you posted. Thanks, Danny
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RE: force feeding
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by JSargent on October 25, 2008
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Another Reason Not to Force Feed.....
about 5 yrs ago i bought three wild caught side-winders from the greenville show....months went by and none would eat, then one died and the other two were getting skinny....so i decided i was gonna force feed the remaining two...a friend, the herp guy at a local zoo, came over to help and observe... feed the first guy no problem...then came the girl, pinned her, and as i lifted felt the prick.... i immediately put her away and went to the hospital....8 hrs later i was home and had to deal w/ the pain that came w/ getting bit....amazingly the snake that got fed, died before the one that didn't...i did not need antivenom, so my bill was only $800, but i only paid $75 for each of those snakes...no snake is worth the risk that comes w/ force feeding a hot...some snakes just aren't meant for captivity...i have had experiences with copperheads that wont eat and would just die in a cage if i let them....also with cottonmouths, while most of both take readily to captivity and thrive.....
the reason i'll never force feed another hot...heck i haven't pinned a snake's head since then,but before that day i had only had to do it a few times anyway...personally i've always chose not to pin snakes for fear i may squeeze them to death...lol
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RE: force feeding
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by danny37 on October 25, 2008
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i have actully never brumated a snake before, i get the gest of it though. i need to put it in a cooler enviorment say 48-60 degrees with a fresh water supply for about 3 months or so.dose it need to be kept in a dark place? these are my first w/c snakes, i have been keeping exotic species, and c/b snakes for years. but the way w/c snakes behave is new to me, and when i say wild caught i mean these snakes were just cruising around the new mexico deserts a few weeks ago, now their here with me in michigan.theres a guy i know who went down there to do some roofing work, and he met another dude down there that extracts snakes from peoples yards and houses, so he brought me back a few. i want to do everything i can to make sure these guys do not die on me. i wold feel very guilty for having them brought here just to die. so all of you guys (or girls) out there that know how to bruemate a snake correctly please give me the info i need to keep these snakes healthy. Thanks,Danny
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RE: force feeding
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by danny37 on October 25, 2008
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i hear you, i am not in any hurry to get tagged by any hot snake, i did have to force feed a copper head of mine a couple of years ago, and even though its not super toxic i was shaking like Don Knotts afterwards. i am going to try all of the methods, and advice i got from people on this site bnefore i do anything else (like force feeding). but thanks for the story, i know it is very hazardous for both parties potentialy. and by the way, after i force fed that copper head twice he started eating in his own.Thanks, Danny
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