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death of my son
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by Murburg on October 28, 2008
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My son died in a Green Beret training exercise at Ft. Bragg on 6/9/08. I have trouble believing multiple strikes by a cottonmouth. My son and I are hunters and woodsmen and have killed such snakes. I reviewed the photos of where the attack took place allegedly and do not see it as likely habitat or habitat where my son would not have been able to see the snake. My son had an IQ of 151 and would not have subjected himself to multiple bites on the dorsal side of his left hand on dry land in full morning daylight. I had wanted to believe the Army's conclusions but something about this is not right. If bitten, he died within minutes. After reading what I could, I find it harder and harder to find the conclusion plausible. The explanation defies my son"s behaviors and the reptiles. Does this make sense to you all? All the information I can get either way will be most helpful in trying to deal with my son's death. He was my only son and we were close. He was a good and honorable young man. I just can't seem to get my mind around this and I would be most thankful for whatever information I can get on multiple strikes from cottonmouthes and almost instantaneous death from its bite. Thank you ever so much. If you choose to you may write to me at Wallmountain1@aol.com. Thanks ever so much. Mike Murburg
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RE: death of my son
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by stopgetinpopped on October 28, 2008
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Hi Mike,
Truly...enormous heartfelt condolences to you my friend.. What a terrible deal.
Cottonmouths are certainly very willing to give multiple bites when defending themselves but the harrassment (from the snakes perspective) must continue. Cottonmouths have a bad reputation although it is undeserved. These snakes are very defensive and will bite readily if we invade their personal space.
Clearly from a snake behavioral standpoint. I can only believe that the snake would make multiple bites if your son picked it up or laid down upon it. You would obviously know his behaviour in a scenario such as this. So only you can make a determination as to whether one of those two took place.
As for death that quickly...? It is certainly unlikely but is a remote possibility. The most unfortunate issue with snakebite is that the severity of the bite is not really clear until medical observations and tests have been performed. Even then it is largely a mystery.
An average cottonmouth bite to an average person is not likely to be fatal, even without medical treatment.
If there were anything out of the ordinary, average circumstance. Possible.
The two most plausible explanations to a rapid death as is suggested in this case would be an intravenous bite. Straight into an artery (which is highly unlikely) and an allergic reaction to the snakes venom (also highly unlikely) assuming he had never been exposed to snake venom previously.
I remember reading about this when it happened. I know I found it rather bizarre but certainly not impossible. Improbable but not impossible.
My deepest regards go out to you and your family with the utmost of respect.
Best Wishes.
Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.
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RE: death of my son
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by atrox56 on October 29, 2008
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Dear Mr. Murburg:
Most of us heard about this tragic incident and we all were deeply saddened by your lose. I am sure that your son was an honorable young man and you have every right to be extremely proud of him, we need more young men like him.
The possibility of a 13 month old Cottonmouth ( Agkistrodon p. piscivorous ) taking the life of a 6 foot plus 200 plus pound male in good physical condition is extreme at best.
An anaphalactic reaction to the venom is remote but it is still a possibility that should be looked into. Next,did the venom enter directly into the blood stream via a vein or artery? Even if this were the case it would take a good amount of venom to kill that quickly from this particular species. However this could happen, all be it remote.
I read only sketchy bits of the article, but one thing stood out. How did anyone determine the exact age of the snake? If I saw this snake and was asked its age I would have said " about a year or so old " but the Army said 13 months and I find that a bit suspicious. Another thing that I found odd was that the snake was found in the general area and its venom holding sacs were empty? I have been working with snakes for over 38 years now and I have never seen a Cottonmouth or any other snake for that matter with totally empty sacs.
A strike and envenomation takes less then 1 second. The hand showed two seperate hits. Did the measurments of the fangs match the marks on the hand? If so I believe the snake would have had to bite the second time and hold on for it to empty the sacs. I was tagged by a cottonmouth in 1973 and I can state from experience that the pain is so great your son would have snatched the snake off his hand almost immediately. Were the fangs of this snake broken, along with any other teeth on the upper jaw? Were there any broken teeth still in the wound? Find out.
It seems to me that the snake struck out of fear and being a defensive bite once would have been enough to back the offender off. Your son must have been sitting down, probably washing his hands in the stream or handeling the snake in some manor to get the bites on the back of the hand in the first place. Which hand was bitten and was your son right or left handed. I'm right handed and I always hold a snake with my right hand.
I am sure you have hundreds of questions as to how something such as this could have happened. I would look at having an independent medical examiner give you his inyerpretations of what happened. I am so sorry for your loss and I wish you the best and pray that you find the true answers to your questions.
Very truly yours
Joel t. La Rocque
1 864 882 7498
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by Chris_Harper on October 29, 2008
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Mike,
Number one, as a father of a single son, let me say that I am deeply saddened by your loss. I cannot imagine going through that, but as a paramedic I always know it is a possibility.
As for this particular case, there are some elements that aren't entirely clear. Having been to that course many years ago, I know it can be very tough. There are several potential causes of death for anyone participating. The land nav portion is incredibly demanding, and could lead to dehydration issues including severe electrolyte imbalances. Electrolyte imbalances in turn can lead to cardiac dysrhythmias. Heat stroke is another potential. There's just no telling, but I'm not sure why that would be covered up. Misinterpretation is one possibility but as a paramedic who has worked many death scenes, I don't want to second guess anyone who was there. I simply don't have all of the information that they had.
I know what you want is closure in this matter, and I have spoken with many family members in cases that I have worked to help them gain closure. I just don't know that we can provide that for you.
The course for Green Berets is a tough and dangerous undertaking, and occasionally there are fatalities. It is very unfortunate that you lost your son in this way, but you should be proud of what he was a part of, and what he was trying to accomplish. He was no doubt a person of high caliber and great patriotism.
Best regards,
Chris Harper, webmaster
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by FSB on October 29, 2008
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Dear Mr. Murburg-
Most of us already posted our thoughts about this tragedy in the thread "Special Forces soldier killed by snake bites" originally posted by tigers9 on September 17, 2008. You can either scroll back through the Experts forum to that date, or type "special forces" into the forum search. You should read these posts, which were all made spontaneously and independently, upon first reading the news article, by many of the most experienced experts at this site. I don't believe that a single one of us found the Army's story plausible, and now, in light of your assertion here that both yourself and your son were experienced woodsmen with a knowledge of snakes, it only seems all the more IM-plausible.
I too am the father of a single son, and the pain and loss you must be experiencing is worse than anything else I could possibly imagine. I am sure I can speak for most of the other people here when I say that our love and support goes out to you and your family.
Sincerely,
Frederick S. Boyce
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by Cro on October 29, 2008
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Mike, read the September thread that Fred mentioned quickly, as it is liable to "go missing."
Bring in an independent Medical Examiner or Wrongfull Death Atorney, and launch an outside investigation.
Hopefully, you will find the answers that you are looking for.
There are many things that need to be questioned.
Look into wether the Cottonmouth might have "somehow" wound up inside of your son's backpack, and why that might have happened.
Talk with your son's friends and folks he served with.
Again, My Condolences in the loss of your son.
Best Regards John Z
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by iLuVeNoM on November 2, 2008
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Mike - your son is now at peace. May you and your family hold strong in this time of pain, and know that your son is always with you in spirit.
If it is ultimately proven that there was foul play involved, I hope the real truth comes out and those responsible take accountability.
Please take note: on this site, it has been stated clearly and made known that you would more likely receive better and/or more responses if you filled in your profile.
Take care...
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