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The Market what it will bare.
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by pictigaster1 on February 8, 2009
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I know that some snakes are rare and there for are priced as such.I also know that the price is usually pushed to the limit of what the market will bare .Albino this het that pattern less whatever .This seems like the after shock of a ball python night mare.4500 dollars for a snake that dies 5o% of the time before it is a year old is excessive.Bushmasters need I say more.What is the market in this depressed economy.Some snakes are not rare in the wild yet are unavailable due to import issues cities state or federal bans.My rozei for instance are native to A country where import is banned.They are bred in another country and imported here.They are not rare in the wild but there are probably less than 20 in the usa.I do not know how many true hot keepers there are in the usa.These are people who will keep through out there lives.I read 140,000 burmese were imported last year.What the f.... This country produces plenty to keep the trade going I would think.My question is what will the market bare,I see some dealers selling the same snakes they had two years ago.Would it not make more sense to sell at a lower price to move them.Yet they hold them waiting for a higher price.I my self will sell some snakes if I need the money or another project.Yet I will give away many as well.Rare or not.I am happy to see the captive propagation of so many species .I hope this will continue.I also hope or wish those protected species legally bred would be easier to own.Another question did the ball python market influence the outrages prices we sometimes see.I am rambleing now any thoughts?
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RE: The Market what it will bare.
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by puffadder7 on February 8, 2009
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i know what you mean, it just seems ridiculous to buy a baby ball python for 12,000$, and it dies on you, then what to do, so i guess its just your word against theirs, arin
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RE: The Market what it will bare.
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by earthguy on February 9, 2009
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The market will support whatever people are willing to pay. Sadly, people in the past have had (in my opinion) more money than sense, so prices have been inflated (universally, this doesn't just apply to the snake market - think housing). The other thing that I think keeps prices artificially high for snakes is that MOST people who sell snakes have other livelihoods. Basically the snake market is a hobby for them, so they can afford to hold on to inventory if the price isn't 'right'. Those who do sell snakes for a living make most of their money on the little deals. They can hold out for that one big sell if they have to...and they want to.
One other thing to add here. I see nothing wrong with this scenario. Bushmasters too expensive? Good. That means that (hypothetically) only people who really want bushmasters will go to the effort to buy them. We don't really want some snakes THAT easily accessable to the general public. $15,000 for a ball python? If you've got it, it's your money to spend. Go ahead and stimulate the economy :). One of the snakes that I would really like (Eastern Indigo) is out of my reach financially. I just have to live with it until I strike it rich with the Lottery (which I don't play)
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RE: The Market what it will bare.
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by Rob_Carmichael on February 9, 2009
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Joshua,
Although I don't breed eastern indigos as much as I used to, I do have one pair and would be happy to donated a hatchling to you...still a long shot as this is a very old female. Unlike most hobbyists, I don't sell anything - in this day and age of legal issues, permit violations, dealing with idiotic customers, and the fact that we are seeing so many restrictions on the keeping of hots, our facility no longer engages in this type of activity. Instead, any captive produced animals (indigos, various rattlers, Lachesis, anything) are donated to educational causes and facilities. We do have very strict guidelines and most people will not want to go through the background checks that we put them through - and that's how I like it because it weeds out the yin yangs whose only goal is to see themselves on Youtube or the police blotter. We are drafting even stricter guidelines and policies for where venomous reptiles can go. Right now, they can only go to an actual facility (facilitiy meaning zoo, nature center, museum, etc.).
Going back to Archie's original post,he hits a number of important issues. To me, the biggest issue is that it is difficult to sell any venomous herp due to restrictions on ownership from the state and local level - just too many headaches involved. You do indeed see the same snakes being sold month after month. Honestly, I think these same people could cut their prices in half and still not sell them. The market stinks, demand is low and we are killing ourselves anyway as the venomous herp community can't properly police themselves. Idiots abound and unfortunately, they will ruin it for the responsible people who've been doing this for a long time. I personally think that prices for venomous herps should stay relatively high. It's rather frightening when you see cobras (any species, no matter how common they are such as black paks, etc) selling for $50 at a swap only to have some high school kid plunk down some newspaper route money and carelessly walk around with a deli cup containing a monocled (speaking from an actual incident I witnessed). While captive breeding has opened up many doors for people to get into the hobby, we are also killing ourselves because we do have so many animals flooding the market and so few truly competent people that have the knowledge, skill, resources and maturity to properly care for them in a manner that is educational.
Rant over.
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RE: The Market what it will bare.
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by jparker1167 on February 9, 2009
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i agree, i have seen people at shows buying stuff that was not something they where ready for. one guy was buying a baby gaboon and he said to the vendor, i guess i need one of those snake stick things huh.
there are many snakes i would love to get like bushmasters,cribos,indigos,Pytas carinata. and many others that are very high in price. i dont think venomous should be cheap for the reason already said, but i have kept a few ball python morphs and have friends that keep tons and i dont think that 50% die before a year old.
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RE: The Market what it will bare.
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by jared on February 9, 2009
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Supply and demand gents, if there are only 6 of some rare strain of snake, butterfly or whatever, the price is going to be worth it. Just how it is, I wonder if a million a piece will be enough for the last 6 trees on earth, last 6 ounces of clean water? Last 3 bushmasters, and even the last 3 southern copperheads would be worth more as there are only 3 of them. If you have to go to osa and collect your own blackheads, your right you didnt have to pay fot the snakes, but in actuality you did. You paid for the trip, the guides, brushing some locales palms, and I dont know what the rest of your time is worth but mine is pretty decent, that is a factor as well. Zoos inherently dont really worry about buying snakes as most AZA facilities trade with other zoos for the most part though some do have lists of private breeders, if there is something they cant find in isis in there country etc. As far as they go the budgets on most zoos are incredibly tight anyway with little room for lots of snake purchases in my personal experience.
Now, personally I totally agree with you Rob regarding low priced hots. I feel that all hots should be sold for less than 100 dollars, just to keep those animals out of the hands of kids and so that there is a certain level of dedication in the purchase to anyone wanting to keep the species. I as well as many other breeders have to speak to someone a little before they attempt to purchase an animal. I like to know they have a base and I have turned down hundreds of sales for various reasons. I hand raise my animals that my breeder groups produce and therefore have time invested and really would hope that my animals are going to good keepers. Realistically, I know some may have gone to not so good keepers after selling them but I cannot track them (nor am I interested in big brother getting involved in that) that is assumed risk. I can only hope, I cannot feed them all myself. I hope to sell them to those who want to breed the line. Again, supply and demand as well as individual vendors ethics (again lack of consistency there in some vendors, but there are no uniform guidelines established) are some of the major issues with this. As long as you have a consistently depreciating amount of the livestock (essentially what this boils down to) the price will rise,(hyacinth macaws and haitan giant centipedes) and last I heard reptiles havent been making major comebacks as of late. Just my .02
Jared Watts
Ps, before the internet, before the groups, I was going out catching and keeping cottonmouths without any money ever being involved. Thats how you can tell the difference. If they were all worthless (which isnt to far off in this market) I will continue to keep them all anyway.
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RE: The Market what it will bare.
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by najasuphan on February 9, 2009
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Great post! There's a lot of interesting things that can be picked out of this. I am not much for morphs myself and I am astonished at the prices that some people try and sell them for. I could really care less about most of them. Some are pretty, but I usually prefer the wild-type animals over any of the morphs. I do find it interesting though that some dealers will keep trying to sell the same snake(s) for a high price for a year or more without really budging on the price. Doesn't seem like a good business practice to me but hey, I guess they don't really need to move them if they can afford to sit on them for that long. Whatever works I guess.
The thing that really scares me is the lack of ethics that sometimes affects both sides of actually selling these deadly snakes. I can't tell you how many times I've been at a show and seen someone grab a little deli cup with a Gaboon or something else, with their hand wrapped around the side of the container with the little holes in it, and nothing is said by the dealer. They are definite candidates for a Darwin Award. Or when I talk to a vendor about a particular snake, Black Mamba for example because this actually happened to me, and they have no interest in what kind of person they are selling to. I was basically talked to like I had no idea what I was looking at, but the guy was still wanting to sell it to me. That scares me. I know when I get to breeding any of my snakes I will certainly learn who my snakes will go to. I'm really skeptical about just selling to someone I don't know because I actually care about my snakes, and any potential offspring. I'll more than likely give them to friends, or trusted associates, and any institution that might possibly want any of them. I would feel much better about doing that than putting an ad up somewhere and possibly selling to someone that stands a very high chance of getting bitten, or mistreating the animal, or the possibility of some of my animals going to someone that intends on performing venomoid surgery on it. A lot of this is why I haven't really tried to breed my Forest Cobras, which I can't recall seeing any babies available of the East African color variant here so I think it would be neat. Of course, I'll more than likely keep a few of the offspring for myself, but I don't want to be stuck with a whole bunch of them or seal their fate by unintentionally selling them to some youtube "personality" or venomoid butcher. This is a topic I think of a lot because I want to breed some of my snakes but I guess I'm slightly paranoid of the care the offspring might unfortunately end up with. Okay, enough ranting for me!
Jamie
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RE: The Market what it will bare.
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by pictigaster1 on February 9, 2009
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Man some really good answers.It was bushmasters that I meant die before a year old NOT BALL PYTHONS.Rob good post good answers.Bushmasters should remain high priced and then only those willing to work out all of the idosyncrices will own them.I wish we had a pool of breeders that put so many offspring into the pool.Then other breeders put so many offspring in to the pool.Then when some one needed some fresh blood or a new species they would draw from the pool.No cash ever.A breeders exchange with set numbers you can draw from,an set you must give to keep the pool going..................Archie
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RE: The Market what it will bare.
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by atwageman on February 9, 2009
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I agree with what has been said so far in this topic. Last year I aquired a pair of wild type WDB's from a barely old enough to buy beer bonehead. This guy had no business (severe lack of maturity & safety) in owning anything hot. Fast forward 6 months and I get a call from his local animal control agency saying that all his animals are now in their possesion and they are looking for qualified owners. He had some dogs tied up in the back yard that looked worse than most starving children in Africa, and now I own thanks to his stupidity a eastern green mamba, and a few more rattlesnakes. Surprisingly the snakes were in relative good health.
It pisses me off when I see people with the maturity if a grapefruit and the lack of financial means to properly care for and house animals.
I backed out of a deal once because the sellers house smelled worse than a poorly managed pet store on a 110 degree summer day.
---end of rant
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