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RE: S307: A potential Threat to Venomous Keepers
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by soulstealer9y0l on May 16, 2009
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You're right, I havent spent very much time on this site at all. But let me clarify why I did what I did. I got your email about this which is all right up there at the top what i got. I got that along with a link that took me to somewhere that didn't really tell me anything. I saw at the end of the message that only venomous, large constrictors, and crocodilians would be affected. It did not say how they would be affected at all. So the alarms went off and I jumped to the defense of my hobby. That is all I was trying to do, just as many of us did when HR 669 was looming over our heads.
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RE: S307: A potential Threat to Venomous Keepers
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by MoccasinMan on May 16, 2009
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... and who was the biggest factor in derailing HR669?(if only temporarily). it is important to recognize your friends... careful not to accuse them of being the enemy. your best weapon is staying informed and educate yourself to the issues... realize who the players are and which are your friends! USARK is the best friend the venomous community has...
AW
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RE: S307: A potential Threat to Venomous Keepers
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by Existential on May 16, 2009
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I'm sorry, but I must have read an older version of the bill. I have to say that I like the new one much better, but one thing still bothers me.
"If any person, other than the owner... the owner's agent, employee, or a member of the owner's immediate family, suffers a life threatening injury or is killed as the result of a violation of this Article, the owner of the reptile shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor..."
I know I asked the same question before, but what if another hot keeper wants to come see your collection, and is bitten by no fault of your own? Granted, a misdemeanor is much less than a felony, but there is still a lot of money and maybe even animal confiscation involved. Surely, there must be some level of personal responsiblity?
Don't get me wrong. This new bill is much more pleasing, and hopefully will keep the wrong groups off our backs, provided that we show we are responsible enough to regulate ourselves. You've done great work, getting this thing into congress, and even passed in the senate, and I can't thank you enough. I'm just trying to make sure I know what is going on.
As for asking that questions be sent via email, it seems to me that they would be better aired here. That way, you don't have to answer the same questions again and again, and anyone that is interested can be clear about the bill and what it means for us.
Thanks again, Andrew, for your time, and for the work you've put into this. I'm just trying to make sure that I am clear on the specifics.
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RE: S307: A potential Threat to Venomous Keepers
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by Cro on May 16, 2009
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I think that Existential does bring up a good point about trying to answer some questions folks have here, where the answers will reach thousands of people.
Not everyone will go to the USARK site, no matter how much we urge them to do so. Just like folks will not use Google for a easy reptile question, but will post it here instead. So, if Andrew has the time to address issues here, that would be a great help I think.
I also agree with Andrew that anyone asking questions here should take the time to fill in their Profile, and let us know a bit about who you, and what experience level your questions are coming from. As soon as we rework the website a bit, that will be a requirement anyway, so, everyone needs to get used to it.
As far as the wording in the bill that states:
"If any person, other than the owner... the owner's agent, employee, or a member of the owner's immediate family, suffers a life threatening injury or is killed as the result of a violation of this Article, the owner of the reptile shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor..."
Well, there is nothing wrong with that. It is the same legal language that will hold you responsible if your pit bull dog chews up the neighbor. It is also the same legal language that would hold you responsible if you injured someone in a car wreck. It is standard legal language, and you would still have to be prooved to be guilty of that misdemeanor in a court of law.
All it is saying is that if you do something irresponsible, and someone else gets hurt, then it is your fault. If you have a large constrictor, and do not cage it properly, and it gets out and eats the neigbors dog, or kid, then heck yeah, you are responsible ! Because the snake should have never gotten out in the first place, if you were housing it correctly.
Really very simple, and nothing to fear, unless you are keeping cobras in screen topped aquariums with a couple of bricks holding the lid on !
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: S307: A potential Threat to Venomous Keepers
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by pictigaster1 on May 16, 2009
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I think your bill is grounded in sound logic yet I see a trust put in animal control that is not well founded.These people will be able to decide if you are following these guide lines.Then they are impowered to take said animals if they say you do not comply .These are the people who want your snakes removed anyway.
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RE: S307: A potential Threat to Venomous Keepers
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by Cro on May 16, 2009
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I would like to see professionals from Game and Fish being the ones to decide if animals are housed right.
Just like they do in Florida, before they issue a venomous reptile permit.
Archie's point about Animal Control is valid in many areas, and the folks working for them are often not professionaly trained.
Would be far better if Game and Fish were the ones to inspect caging. Or, perhaps the Department of Agriculture. That way it would be a State Agency, and not subject to the whims of various Animal Control folks which vary a great deal from County to County.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: S307: A potential Threat to Venomous Keepers
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by MoccasinMan on May 17, 2009
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I understand your concerns about local law enforcement administering the law... NC Wildlife Resources Commission refused to administer the regulation as originally written by me as a permit system. The key here is the burden of "probable cause". It is not arbitrary and requires LEO's to observe an established Tennant of the law that will open them to lawsuit if not properly administered. Nothing is perfect, but this is the most herper friendly reg in the country by far.
AW
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RE: S307: A potential Threat to Venomous Keepers
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by atwageman on May 17, 2009
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As a NC resident and hot keeper, I do support this legislation as it is currently written. Sure I hate further regulation just as much as the next person....but.
As far as someone else other than me getting bit by something in my collection, well the short answer is that they won't. My collection is private to the extreme. My collection has only been seen by about 4 other herpers. Outside of that the only people allowed to even go inside my herp building is myself, the wife, and Jesus Christ. AT NO TIME DO I EVER UNLOCK A CAGE WHILE OTHERS ARE IN MY HERP BUILDING...PERIOD!
As far as caging is concerned. All my hots, right down to the babies and juviniles are kept in locked cgaes. All my hot cages use either a keylock system or padlock/key system. All of my hot caging is made to keep hots in and safely. No screen top aquariums, etc are used...period. If I had my way it would be a class 1 felony to even use such for any kind of hot. IF YOU CAN NOT AFFORD PROPER VENOMOUS CAGING BE IT COMMERCIALY AVAILABLE OR SOMETHING YOU WOULD MAKE YOURSELF, THEN GUESS WHAT MORON...YOU CAN'T AFFORD THE SNAKE.
As far as local animal control is concerned, I'm a little lucky in that department. I've had a long standing professional relationship with them. Years ago there was a plan to limit hots in private hands, but it went nowhere. But had it my local animal control and county commisioners were going to use me as the example to which all other hot keepers in my county were going to be judged in terms of safe keeping etc. I was rather proud of that. I didn't care for the attention though.
As far as the NC Wildlife Commision is concerned. Yep I've had 2 announced visits from them. But that was because I had applied for and was granted permits to keep a couple of hots that are protected at the state level.
The overall security for my hot building is also a little overkill for some folks too. The dedicated alarm system is tied to a monitoring facility, plus I am also notified via automated text message of an intrusion, just in case the alarm company gets slack and doesn't call me within a specified amount of time. This summer I will be installing a real time cctv security system with dvr's, that will also allow me via internet to see whats going on inside and outside of my herp building.
Safety, security, caging, protocols, permits etc really come down to one thing $$$$ MONEY $$$$$ and common sense you either have it at your disposal or you don't.
My statements above were not meant to sound elitist or anything, because a well thought out hot room and proper hot caging can be achieved over time without having to break the bank. I'm just tired of half-assed keepers with half-assed resources. It's the half-assed mindset that makes all of us look bad.
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