RE: USARK in the news
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by Cro on July 12, 2009
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Andrew,
I am all for that, however, one issue comes to mind.
You state: "It requires that you list the AV for the animals you have and the location it can be found."
Listing the antivenom type needed is fairly easy, as that is available on the internet.
But, listing where the anitvenom can be found will be more of a problem, as access to the antivenom index has in the past been restricted to doctors and AAZPA zoos, and poison control centers.
I hope that they will change the legislation so that the list of facilities keeping antivenom is made available on the internet to the general public.
That way, a keeper just might decide to not purchase a Echis pyramidum, or other highly dangerous snake, at a reptile show, if he knew that there was NO antivenom available for that animal. Also, a keeper could put that information in his bite protocol sheets, which could save hours getting the antivenom.
There have been several times where folks were bitten by exotic venomous states and efforts were made to secure antivenom from far away states, where it turned out that there were other supplies closer by.
For your proposed bill to work, and for the venomous keepers to comply with the law, they will have to have access to knowing where antivenin can be found. I guess they could ask a friendly doctor or poison control person to find out for them. But, in the past, access to that sort of information has been kept a secret......
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: USARK in the news
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by atwageman on July 13, 2009
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As a NC resident and member of USARK, I feel the need to add my 2 cents. As a keeper of hots, I do support this legislation.
As far as known locations of AV, sure I wish the AZA would make their list avaialable to the public, hell I would gladly pay a yearly reasonable fee of sorts. Now I know the last thing a zoo wants to do is give up their supply of AV to some private keeper, but there has got to be a better way of the private sector in getting ahold of the stockpile locations.
Most of what I keep would require CroFab and I know which area hospitals have it. Now how much they have varies. I have a tight relationship with my primary doctor who has been able to assist me in locating stocking hospitals. Calling your local hospital pharmacy on your own to find out what they have, will most of the time get you nowhwere fast.
I know many folks just want to fly under the radar, but for NC hot keepers its time to come above ground a little, and comply with this legislation before it becomes law. Just my opinion.
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RE: USARK in the news
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by MoccasinMan on July 13, 2009
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I also want to state for the record that Dean Ripa and I have tried a couple of times to start an AV bank here in NC. He has the stock and the storage. The only thing he asked is that we help pay. There have been a couple of polls here on this site on the subject... everyone says they would participate... until it comes down to actually paying for it. 20 people would require about $500 every two years per person. 40 people would be half that. Not enough would step up to the plate.
AW
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RE: USARK in the news
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by atwageman on July 13, 2009
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I would be more than happy "to financialy participate" in a AV bank here in NC. And Dean Ripa would be a great person to have store the stuff. Like you though AW, nobody seems to want to put their money where their mouth is.
Not to get off topic, I think next week I will pay a visit to the CFS.....I need my quarterly bushmaster fix.
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RE: USARK in the news
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by MoccasinMan on July 13, 2009
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What we are advocating are simple straight forward "Best Management Practices". We either step up to the plate and demonstrate we know what we are doing, or we get mowed down by the AR propaganda machine.
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RE: USARK in the news
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by Cro on July 13, 2009
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Here is the problem with the idea of the antivenom bank as it was proposed:
You state: "20 people would require about $500 every two years per person. 40 people would be half that. Not enough would step up to the plate."
That might have worked for people keeping high end venomous snakes, but the mistake you made was saying it would cost $250.00 a year for antivenom access, when most of those 20 people are keeping $70.00 to $120.00 exotic venomous snakes. Some 20 year old kid with a legal $100.00 tree viper is not going to pay $250.00 a year for access to antivenom.
You should have structured it shooting for 100 members, who all pay $100.00 a year. That way the folks with $70.00, or $125.00 exotic venomous snakes would be much more willing to jump in and support it.
There are a lot more of them than the folks keeping a lot of high end exotic venomous.
If you got 200 folks signed up, you could cut the costs to $50.00 a year, and all would have access to the same antivenom.
Just do not open the program until you have 200 folks who have signed on. Once the money is there, then open the program.
You seem to think that everyone who keeps venomous snakes can easily afford $250.00, but the fact is that most of them are young, with low paying jobs.
And do not tell me that they should not be keeping venomous snakes if they can not afford antivenom. That is a crock. They have a right to keep them, just as they can keep a firearm without insurance. It is not smart, but they have a right to be dumb. That is like saying you should not drive a car, unless you have the money to enroll in AAA. It is dumb to keep exotic venomous snakes without access to antivenom, but it should not be illegal. People have been doing it for many years. And the old system of using the antivenom index to find antivenom has worked pretty well so far.
Sure it could be improved, but it has worked.
Anyway, I just think that your idea for a antivenom bank based out of Cape Fear was good, but the costs were not all that well thought out. Who ever dreamed that $500.00 figure up must have a lot more money than I, or most other herpers do. Take the same amount of money needed and divide it by 100 venomous keepers, or 200 venomous keepers, and it works the same, and is much more likely to have folks sign up for it.
Hopefully, the new idea of involving the US Poison Control Centers to help with keeping exotic antivenom at regional hospitals and zoos will eventually work out. That would allow zoos to keep some animals they had put off keeping due to lack of antivenom, and it would make antivenom much more available all around the country.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: USARK in the news
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by MoccasinMan on July 13, 2009
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we based it on the fact that we needed $10,000 to pay for the supply. we could have divided it by as many people as would participate... 20@$500, 40@250, 80@125... and that's every 2 years. with 40 people that is 125 per year for an "insurance policy". there were 90 or so that replied on the last poll that they would participate if they had it available. less than 10 were actually ready to step up.
people can still use venom 1... but it would be nice to have the supply so close and ready.
AW
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RE: USARK in the news
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by Cro on July 13, 2009
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I think it is still possible to make it work.
However, from what I remember, only the higher costs were mentioned, which would have been a turn off to many keepers.
You should have set up a bank account, and gave a FIXED price, say $100.00 a year, and should have stated that the program will not open until there are enough members to raise $10,000.00. And you should have collected interest from that account for USARK while you were waiting. If after 2 years, you did not have enough folks to raise the $10,000.00 then shut the program down, and send folks refunds, and let USARK keep the interest earned for its efforts. You were trying to sell something with a VARIABLE price. That is silly, and not the way to sell things. No wonder folks did not sign up. That was the major mistake that you all made on this program.
Next time, set up PayPal, set a fixed price of $100.00 a year, and do not turn on the program until all the funds have been raised ! It really is very simple.
I would not go to a car dealer, and buy a car for a price that varied due to how many folks had bought cars that week.
Set a fixed price! Build a website and PayPal site for it. Then put it on the forums. And actually go to the reptile shows and set up a booth, and have sign up sheets where folks can sign up and pay that $100.00. Then the program will work. It was originally structured wrong, with a variable price. Fix that, and it will work. The reptile shows will give you a free table for doing that. All you have to do is find a couple of folks to sit there and make a few fliers and banners.
I am not going to buy a variable priced chicken, that might cost $50.00, or might cost $25.00, or might cost $2.00 depending on how many folks are buying chickens!
Make it a fixed price, and perhaps I will cook chicken next week.
Put something in the contract that says, that excess funds come in, say because 500 people sign up, that some of the excess funds will be used to offset renewal costs the next year, and that some of the excess funds will go to USARK for administrative costs, and that some of the excess funds will go to Cape Fear Serpentarium for administrative costs. And extend that same thing to other serpentariums that decide to become part of the antivenom bank setup.
Best Regards
John Z
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