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Care of WC tree vipers, Mr TomT
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by boehmei on August 6, 2003
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TomT,
Thanks for the info that you have provided me so far. You are right in that I didnt provide enough info in the previous post so here goes.
I have literally just picked up the snakes from the dealer (who has been collecting them for the last 40 days, so thats the max that they have been under his care, most probably less than that). There are about 10 Trimeresurus popeorum, some males nearly fully grown, some half grown females and one or two small juveniles. There are also three T. hageni, also all juveniles (I asked the dealer for juves specifically as I thought that they settle better into captivity - with other snakes anyway). Lastly there are a few Tropidolaemus wagleri, one adult female, 2 adult males and one very young juvenile. Most seem to be okay but some of the males look a little dehydrated. Havent tried to feed any of them yet, and dont think I will for the next week or so.
Hope this provides the info that you need. You mentioned to keep them well hydrated. Humidity, spraying and a water bowl will be provided, but do you think that it is worthwhile giving them electrolytes by tube, its a pretty standard treatment for dehydration in other animals.
There is also another treatment that I was considering. I picked it up from someone doing digestive shutdown experiments in Pseudaspis where it is necessary to feed precisely known quanities. He was using a formula that is used in cats and dogs that are recuperating from major trauma (surgery, malnutrition etc). It is basically a paste that can be fed through a feeding tube that is really high in nutrients, vitamins etc etc.
So basically I was thinking of giving these guys a good rehydration solution this week, let them settle for a few days, give them a little food through tubing, the next week attempting feeding, and only after they are feeding well subjecting them to the physiological stress of deworming. As far as medication goes, if any of them so much as give a peep as to being unhealthy they will be off to the vet. I will also get his advice as to dosages of everything from electrolytes to dewormers.
Any ideas as to whether this will work any any other suggestions will be most welcome and I appreciate your time in helping me out.
Ian
PS With some thought it might be better to save tube feeding as a last resort.
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RE: Care of WC tree vipers, Mr TomT
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by TomT on August 6, 2003
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MUCH MUCH better Ian LOL....
I can "see" your situation much more clearly now. What you'll have to take into consideration while reading this is that I am a very "hands off" sort when it comes to husbandry of snakes. I have never kept a snake that liked being restrained by the neck or head, and the same holds true for their apparent dislike of having a tube shoved (however gently) down their throat. Stress is stress, no matter how it is induced, so I am sensitive to the delicate balance between the animals' need to live stress free and their need to be relatively parasite free, well fed and well hydrated.
The first thing I would do, and I expect you have already done based on your second post, is set each animal up in individual housing. When I set up an enclosure for an arboreal snake, my first concern has been to ensure that I can supply CLEAN water from overhead in a way that the snake will find it appealing to use. To date, I have never seen an arboreal viper drink from a water bowl that I didn't dunk his/her little head in first. Water bowls are nice from the perspective that they help to keep the enclosure humid, but that's about where the utility of them begins and ends for arboreals and even many terrestrial species (Gaboon vipers being the first that comes to mind).
I have rigged several sprinkler heads (heads and tubing can be purchased at just about any large hardware chain... Lowes, etc...) to allow me to make it "Rain" in the enclosures. This seems to work quite well in getting tree snakes of all shapes and sizes to drink. I have also used a trick that chameleon keepers use. Take a large styrofoam or plastic cup and put a tiny hole in the bottom of the cup to allow it to drip (Chinese water torture anyone?) and then set it directly above the snake's head to allow it to drip on the snake's head... this seems to be moderately more effective than misting...misting VS spraying... I use a (new) pump sprayer, like the ones used for spraying pesticides and herbacides, with luke-warm water to hose down a snake or several snakes that need lots of rehydration. Another technique you can use is to place the snakes (one at a time) in a shallow plastic tub with a perch of sorts inside that only allows the snake to just barely get above the liquid inside... use pedialyte or gatoraide in the tub... I never had much luck with that one with arboreals...
Getting them well hydrated is much more important than getting a meal into them, although there's really no reason not to offer food. I will often offer food as soon as I get a snake home as a way to try to normalise the snake in a hurry if you will... sometimes in all the confusion of being bagged and shipped the snake gets so stressed out it eventually dies. I believe that if I offer food, it can sort of jolt the snake back to normality and if the snake will eat, it probably will be all right.
If you really feel strongly about giving a rehydration solution through a catheter you may as well mix in some flagyl and panacur and get it over with... you can hydrate, medicate and stimulate their apetite all in one shot... you can even incorporate the feeding based on the experimentation you mentioned while medicating.
go to this link:
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/forums/Experts/5057
for dosages on flagyl and panacur.
When you say the dealer has been collecting them for 40 days, do you mean the guy is in Indonesia collecting them, or he's here in the US collecting them from exporters in Indo? If he's field collecting them, and the snakes have only been in captivity for 40 days, then that's a good thing. If the dealer has been compiling some for you from exporters, then the snakes will have been in captivity for (potentially at least) a lot longer and their condition may be much less than desirable. Either way, I'd would use whatever means at my disposal to ensure they get lots and lots and lots of water.... food as you feel comfortable in giving it, whether by tube or by offering a "meal"... and remember that arboreals GENERALLY cannot handle very large prey items well... so fuzzie mice for the littler ones and maybe adult mice on the adults for now...
If you elect to shotgun them with meds through a catheter, a fecal should still be done at the first opportunity to see what's in there. Without evidence of what you could be dealing with, it is nearly impossible for you to guess what meds the snakes need..
Most of all, I would like to wish you the best success in keeping the snakes. It sounds like you have a very good idea of what you're doing without my comments. Just remember that arboreals "tend" toward having a much slower metabolism than many other snakes. There are exceptions. Digestion takes fluid from the snake, so they will need more water to disgest a meal. The key from the start is to allow them to settle in and relax in their new home with plenty of fluids and moderate temperatures (80-85 degrees for the most part). High humidity aids in respiration, another way animals become dehydrated, and once the snakes are stable they will, no doubt, be just fine.
Last word.. if you have not already... quarantine and use protocols to protect the rest of your animals from becoming infected with whatever these snakes *might* have until you are sure they're out of danger. I just read of a documented case of Paramyxo virus in Emerald Tree Boas in a captive collection. This is BAD stuff, and wild collected animals have been known to have the virus too... it can take as long as 3 months to kill. It is highly contageous and is spread through many means, one of them is it can be spread through airborne means... so protect your animals and your investment of time, care and money by using good quarantine protocols above all else.
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RE: Care of WC tree vipers, Mr TomT
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by boehmei on August 7, 2003
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Hey again Tom,
Thanks for all your advice, it will go to much use. To be honest these snakes all look really healthy (except for one of the males who looks a bit emaciated) and the female T. wagleri even takes the pleasure of lashing out at me whenever she sees movement. I think its just her personality though, she did the same thing when I picked her off the branch in Borneo. When I mentioned the 40 days that was the time that the Popes had spent with the dealer in Malaysia. I was really surprised to find Hagens amoungst them, but really unfortunately it was one of these that was the only mortality on the way over:(
Will be offering food this weekend, so lets hold thumbs:)
Cheers for now and thanks once again for your information.
Ian
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