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Keeping Venomous Snakes In The Home.
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by TheBlackMamba on June 16, 2013
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Hey guys, I would like to get some of your opinions on the role of private keepers in conservation. I am currently mentoring and training some future venomous snake owners. Part of the training is that I want to prepare them for some of the talking points that may come their way from groups such as the HSUS, ASPCA, and PETA such as:
1) Why do you keep venomous snakes?
2) Venomous snakes belong in zoo's.
3) Venomous snakes aren't pets.
4) Your going to die !
I am currently outlining my talking points and would like to know the position of the SHHS on such topics. For the record my typical responses to such questions are:
1) Zoos are overcrowded and underfunded with tax payer money.
2) Zoos cannot even possibly begin to conserve or help the amount of species that need aid.
3) Private citizens are more than capable of conserving populations and educating the public with their animals.
4) The reptile industry in a multibillion dollar industry.
5) We keep the animals either to conserve them or educate the public with them.
6) It is not the role of the government or any other non-governmental organization to decide what our pets are. We will decide for ourselves if our animals are pets.
* The interesting thing about the last talking point is that the definition of a pet is an animal kept for pleasure (such as a goldfish) rather than utility (such as a cow). However, if we are conserving a population of a particular species because we like them (find them pleasurable to keep,) are we keeping them for pleasure or utility ? That is, are they a pet or a specimen ? I am not sure, I would like to get your feedback. However, the one thing I am sure of is that I don't want or need the HSUS or the US government to decide for me.
Furthermore, I am currently addressing other issues that make private keepers look bad such as "hoarding (keeping more animals then you can care for,)" keeping multiple species, and what to do if you meet an unlicensed "illegal" keeper. Would like to get your feedback on this as well because I am trying to train them to breed and conserve a single population of their favorite species (as opposed to keeping 5 different kinds of snakes) and ethical and logistical issues arise such as:
1) When is the population "big enough" ?
2) What animals should you keep and what animals should you sell ?
3) Who should you sell to ?
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RE: Keeping Venomous Snakes In The Home.
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by Ptk on June 17, 2013
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I certainly admire your goal. If you are wanting opinions here's mine:
"Keeping venomous snakes in the home" (title of your post) - As far as hots go, my opinion...don't. My hotroom is a separate secured building on the property. This goes a long way in keeping my personal pets (dog, cat), kids, spouse and guest safe. Also a bit easier to control temperatures, access and piece of mind should a tree, tornado, structure fire damage my house I wont be trapped in with a bunch of venomous unaccounted for snakes. I believe this actually may be a stipulation from my states DNR for some of the permits (its been many years so this may have changed or I might be remembering incorrectly). Pretty sure my home owners insurance would not allow/cover venomous snakes kept in the home regardless of label (pets/utility). Granted a separate building may not be feasible for everyone.
If you are keeping snakes for public educating it would be hard pressed to just have one specie. Not too many people would invite/hire someone whom was only going to display a dozen or more of the same specie. To properly educate the public you would almost have to have different species venomous and nonvenomous. There are advantages for your own education in having multiple species as well with reasonable limits on total quantity, space/enclosure requirements, time/care commitments, etc.
Conservation - you mentioned breeding and selling. If a species only chance of survival is in captive breeding this is a pretty doomed species. Conservation is such a large topic but in my opinion should start by efforts being made to conserve wild population by keeping them in the wild. If captive breeding is the only possible solution to save a species it should be done in as close to actual "wild" conditions as possible in hopes that breeders could be reintroduced to their real natural environment. Less stress = more success. Someone's spare bedroom 1000 miles away on different continent in an old fish tank, well I guess this still better than being extinct but is this just buying a little time or really going to save the species?
I am not sure there is much benefit in confronting PETA and other type groups directly. Do you really believe you could say anything that is going to fundamentally change how they view the world? I believe your talents, efforts, time, money, etc. would go much further educating law makers, government officials and the general public. I hope you will consider teaching your future venomous keepers educated talking points for these audiences as well.
You know what they say about arguing with an idiot........"Never argue with an idiot - they'll bring you down to their level then beat you with experience and others wont be able to tell the difference."
Thanks for sharing! Good luck I hope others will chime in.
PTK
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RE: Keeping Venomous Snakes In The Home.
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by TheBlackMamba on June 20, 2013
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I agree 100%, although I would like to touch base on some things. As far as keeping venomous snakes in the home goes I agree that a separate facility would be ideal, although, as you stated, this probably isn’t practical for most people. I personally have a separate room in my house for my snakes which in my experience is more than satisfactory. I also have a secured emporium for my bush vipers that I keep in my dinning for aesthetical purposes and this has never been an issue.
As far as educating the public goes I think there is a difference between educating and exhibiting your animals. If I was an exhibitor and just showed lots of snakes for the sake of showing snakes (at a birthday party for example) and spoke briefly about them then I would agree that multiple species would be ideal. As far as education goes, I can probably speak for several hours on any particular species as well as use the species to highlight some characteristics that all snakes may possess. Personally I choose to own only two species and just specialize in those species although I have nothing against people who keep multiple kinds of snakes and I may get more someday myself.
With regards to conservation, I don’t think any conservationist would accept the notion that conservation is the only way to save an endangered species. Nor is it the sole purpose of conservation. In fact, many people conserve species that aren’t even endangered. Conservation is more of an insurance mechanism. A population of animals can not only be devastated by human activity, there can be an out brake of a new or invasive virus, parasite, or species in an environment, as well as a natural disaster that can suddenly throw the entire community of animals into peril. It happens all the time. Conservation just guarantee’s that there will be a ready supply of animals if needed to put back into the ecosystem so that we can aid in their recovery. I do agree that we should try to conserve species naturally as well; although, I think it would more or less be the job of the public sector to declare an area a wildlife refuge or a species protected. If anything breeding and selling reptiles on the private market actually helps to protect them naturally because the more animals that are breed in captivity means the less that are exported and taken out of the environment.
Also, I didn’t mean to come off as stating that we should all be out protesting animal rights groups (although that would be nice to see ). I just meant that keepers should understand the basic fundamentals of conservation and why we keep venomous snakes privately. Animals rights groups often try to muddy up the waters of common sense by telling lay people that we just keep snakes because “we think it’s cool” or because “we are selfish” or “we have a mental disorder (as the show fatal attractions would have you believe) .” I am just highlighting the fact that there are rational reasons why private collectors keep their animals in the home that can be articulated to lay people or animal rights activist if questioned, and that we don’t have to just accept the characterizations and stereotypes of their demeaning propaganda. They can educate law makers as well or whomever they choose because they will have the arguments to do so. The animals rights activist want to make this a one sided debate. If anything, I am trying to wake them up to the realization that there are actually advantages to keeping snakes in the home over just leaving them in a public facility or in the wild. A loving home is probably more advantageous to the animals then a zoo or the wild assuming that they are being kept in a decent manner t by a serious keeper.
I don’t just keep my snakes in an “old fish tank in my bedroom” BTW. I spent over $5,000.00 on my reptile room and all of my snakes have their own emporiums and the most advanced heating and lighting systems available. They are given attention and I interact with them all daily. They are not just left in some exposed window to rot like they would be at a zoo or hiding under a rock waiting t get ripped apart by some giant African pigeon like they would be in the wild. I don’t use abusive reptile racks either and my room hails in comparison to some of my friends who are real big hobbyist and spend over 20-30K on their rooms. I don’t know who the hell you have been hanging around with but we don’t keep our cobras in “old fish tanks in our rooms” we take our shit seriously and spend more on our snakes then some people spend on their children. This characterization that we are all just mindless irresponsible people who don’t know how to keep or handle our animals is the exact propaganda that I am trying to eviscerate and that we must all rise against. If they had if their way they would try to convince us that we are to irresponsible and reckless to keep our own children and that they to, like our snakes, should be raised and kept in a government facility. Actually, they have already started: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3qtpdSQox0
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RE: Keeping Venomous Snakes In The Home.
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by CharlieO on June 21, 2013
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Here's a thread I started some time ago...
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/forums/Experts/41424
One of the things I thought about for debating/educating/politicking/etc. is trying to draw attention to the benefits private ownership brings to the surrounding community. Instead of starting out on the defensive, it would seem to me that strong statements about how private ownership can help non-owners and neighbors is more likely to win converts from the public in general.
I would agree that most of your statements are useful, with the exception of #6 (gov't intrusion). While most people agree that "it's not the government's business" when speaking about something they want, this type of argument not only falls on deaf ears, but may actually strengthen someone's resolve against your position. It encourages those with opposing views to take the position that "if you weren't doing something wrong, you wouldn't be concerned about the government." Emotional arguments/statements can be very useful, but the nature of those statements can also evoke very emotional opposition if poorly stated...
Just my $.02...
Charlie O
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RE: Keeping Venomous Snakes In The Home.
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by TheBlackMamba on June 21, 2013
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I don't think anyone would ever argue the fact that it's not a good idea to start out on defense. Unfortunately, that's just the position we have to play right now. They have massive organizations dedicated to destroying us and we have USARK and besides that absolutely nothing. The fact that it even got to the point where these groups were trying to federally ban ball pythons for us to do "something" is a joke. The people I know certainly love their animals and the businesses certainly seem to love their money so I really can't understand where the impotence and lack of organization comes from.
As for point 6, I certainly don't think the role of government is an emotional issue or argument. I think of it more as a legal/ethical argument. Here in NY where I am from they tried to ban soda. To put that into perspective, this means that if a cop saw you drinking a beverage over a certain size he would either give you a summons or put you in jail. Of course, the courts found that the law was illegal and that the government couldn't do that and they struck it down but I am just trying to illustrate a point. For every aspect of your life from what you ware, to how you raise your children, to what pets you buy, there is a person out there who wants to control it and will try to one way or another. There is nothing emotional about it, and there comes a point where you just have to say enough's enough, I am an adult, I pay taxes, I raise my children, and I will choose what religion I am, what soft drink I buy, and what animal I wish to own. As far as I am concerned the government is just a entity that would own and control every aspect of my life if it could and there comes a point where you just have to say, "no, this isn't the role or responsibility of government to determine, it's the role of the individual." If we don't they will just push ahead with their plans and lower the quality of life for all of us. And I am not just talking about the reptile community, they are doing this with everything as of late and it's a real scary trend.
I am not trying to set someone off but it seems that those with resolve against us already have their minds made up and they are the aggressors. I just want to keep my snakes and be left alone. The real issue is that the vast majority of people just don't care at all and will do whatever they think is expedient and politically correct when pressured by one side or the other. The do nothing and respect peoples feeling approach has done nothing but land us on the sinking ship we find ourselves in today. If we don't start dotting our I's and crossing our T's there's going to be nothing to fight about.
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RE: Keeping Venomous Snakes In The Home.
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by Ptk on June 21, 2013
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I kindly RE-direct you to the quote at the end of my post.
- No further comment.
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