OK, LD-50 TEACHER NEEDED !!!! - Experts Forum at VenomousReptiles.org

OK, LD-50 TEACHER NEEDED !!!!	Reply
by Fabian on September 29, 2003	Mail this to a friend!
I STILL NEED HELP WITH THIS LD-50 CHART. HERE IS THE THING, I FOUND THE TIGER RATTLESNAKE AT 0.056, THEN I FOUND THE FOREST COBRA AT 0.289 . IT SEEMS THE TIGER TAKES LESS VENOM TO KILL THEN THE FOREST. PLEASE HELP ME GET THIS DOWN. THANKS, FABIAN

A little help, I hope.	Reply
by Buzztail1 on September 29, 2003	Mail this to a friend!
I am by no means an expert at this. Given that, the thing that you seem to be missing is venom yield. The LD50 chart does not deal with how much venom is given in the particular species' average yield. So, if the Tiger Rattlesnake only needs 0.056 mg/kg to kill someone, convert your weight to kg and then determine how much venom it would have to yield to kill you. The same holds true for the Forest Cobra. Then you figure how much they normally yield. It is entirely possible that the Tiger Rattlesnake can kill someone with a tremendously small amount of venom which is still 3 to 4 times what it can actually deliver. Remember that LD50 is the dose measurement against A MOUSE! People may (and often do) react differently. Then begins the real study. So they don’t inject you with enough to kill you. There is a world of hurt and damage between not getting bitten at all and dying, which includes permanent nerve damage, permanent pain (continuous or intermittent), and/or permanent tissue damage/amputation. Hope this helps some. Karl

RE: OK, LD-50 TEACHER NEEDED !!!!	Reply
by Fabian on September 29, 2003	Mail this to a friend!
Yes, I understand that. So if the tiger had the same amount of venom as the forest, would it kill you faster ? I know everone is dif. but.

RE: OK, LD-50 TEACHER NEEDED !!!!	Reply
by CAISSACA on September 30, 2003	Mail this to a friend!
LD50 is not related to speed of kill. Some highly venomous snakes take a long time to kill you, despite being highly toxic - e.g., boomslang and taipain both have very highly toxic venoms and yet, most victims only die after many hours, much more slowly than most cobra bite victims. As Karl said, LD50 measures are of very limited relevance in assessing the danger of a bite. Other important variables are that mice may differ from people in how sensitive they are to the venom, quantity of venom injected, route of injection (most vipers venoms look much more impressive intravenously than subcutaneously, whereas most elapid venoms are pretty similar via the two routes; most real-life bites are subcutaneous). Your particular example shows all this - To my knowledge, C. tigris has never killed anyone or even come close, whereas N. melanoleuca bites are routinely life-threatening. In summary, forget LD50 for assessign the danger of snakes to people - look for clinical evidence instead (where available). Cheers, Wolfgang

RE: OK, LD-50 TEACHER NEEDED !!!!	Reply
by Fabian on September 30, 2003	Mail this to a friend!
Thanks Karl, and wolfgang. I am starting to see the hole pic. now. So you realy can not use the LD-50 chart as a most deadly snake chart because of the many difrent types of venoms, and how the venom is ijected. I was looking at it as a most deadly snake chart. And I see now that that would be hard to do. Atleast for the every day joe. Right ?

RE: OK, LD-50 TEACHER NEEDED !!!!	Reply
by LarryDFishel on September 30, 2003	Mail this to a friend!
Right, by itself the LD-50 chart tells you very little. If you locate a chart of venom yield (there are a few on the net) and DIVIDE the venom yield by the LD50 you'll get the number of kilograms of MICE that that snake can kill. That would be a much more useful measure (and I'm surpised I've never seen anyone include it in a chart), but still subject to the uncertainties mentioned plus others, like that snakes don't always inject thier full potential, potency of individual snakes changes with age, health, locale and maybe even diet.

Let us also remember...	Reply
by Naja_oxiana on September 30, 2003	Mail this to a friend!
...tha tthere are four different LD50 tests. One for under the skin--subcutanious--is the closest to a teal bite; there is the intramuscular--an envenomation that only a handful of snakes are capable of; intraveinous--Any snake or Navy Corpsman would be lucky to hit a vein, even if that's what they're aiming for; and lastly, intraperitonal--I have no idea what this is....I think it is an injection into the stomach cavity? Every LD50 method produces differing results. The subcutaneous envenomation is most favorable to the Inland Taipan whereas the intramuscular envenomation is most favorable to a viper with longer fangs, iirc. See what I'm trying to say here? Cheers, Roger

RE: Let us also remember...	Reply
by Fabian on October 1, 2003	Mail this to a friend!
You know what they need to do then is have a chart for each of the way's venom is injected. It seems that the LD-50 chart they have now is a free for all. They need to put them in order. Naja, bitis, Etc. Inless the chart was made just for the teachers. The chart should show just how stong each snakes venom is. (In it's owne class) I don't know, The LD-50 was made up to show just how potent each venom is. Like I said, why not put each in it's owne class. Then we every day people could get more out of it. That is kinda like putting metric and standered tools together in one place.

RE: Let us also remember...	Reply
by Naja_oxiana on October 1, 2003	Mail this to a friend!
If you go to Dr. Bryan Fry's website, www.venomdoc.com, you'll be able to access his LD50 list, which does list the four different tests. I was under the impression that you'd been seeing that one. Roger

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