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RE: Crotalus Horridus Horridus antivenom
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by tenneseejed on November 27, 2004
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Whats Crotalus Horridus? Not claiming to be 100% correct but from what i have learned and read a Timber rattlesnake is Crotalus Horridus Horridus and its closely related cousin the Canebrake rattlesnake is Crotalus Horridus Atricaudatus but all on here seem to be telling me that a Timber is crotalus horridus and that canebrakes are crotalus horridus as well so they both are just crotalus horridus. 2 different snakes.
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RE: Crotalus Horridus Horridus antivenom
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by AquaHerp on November 27, 2004
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They are all just timber rattlesnakes Crotalus horridus. The Canebrake is not a recognized subspecies any longer. The name atricaudatus was dropped and it is now considered a monotypic species. Timber rattlesnake respectivly. There will always be the die-hards who will argue it till the end, but it's validity has been in question for decades. Although there does seem to be some question over the Eastern and Western varieties, so we can always split hairs there.
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Crotalus Horridus?
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Anonymous post on November 27, 2004
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After doing some looking around i have found that "Some" herp experts do not determine that the subspecies of the Timber:Crotalus Horridus Horridus the Canebrake:Crotalus Horridus Atricaudatus is not a valid subspecies.It was a valid subspecies up until 1971 when they found that some distinguishing characteristics were shared between the two. So does this mean that a canebrake and timber are the same?If so why does the crotalus horridus atricaudatus name still get placed on canebrakes and horidus horridus on timbers?Just joinin the discussion?
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RE: Crotalus Horridus Horridus antivenom
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by tenneseejed on November 27, 2004
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Thank you for pointing this out,I was under the impression that they were different.But thank you for explaining.So atleast i wasnt totally wrong for questioning people.thanks again for informing me of the way it is.
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RE: Crotalus Horridus Horridus antivenom
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by AquaHerp on November 27, 2004
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No problem at all. Here's the skinny on it in a nutshell:
The intraspecific taxonomy of the timber rattlesnake has been a subject of considerable controversy, in particular the question of whether the often larger, differently patterned populations from the souther half of the range should be recognised as a separate subspecies, C.h. atricaudatus. Clark et al. (2003) analysed the phylogeography of Crotalus horridus across the eastern United States. Levels of mitochondrial DNA variation in the sampled region (319 b.p.) were small (average pairwise divergence 1.1%), and did not correspond to the conventionally accepted subspecies C. h. horridus and C. h. atricaudatus. Three major mtDNA gene lineages were identified: one is largely restricted to the Atlantic coastal plain from Vermont to Florida, but crosses the Appalachians in western VA, WV and NC; a second is found in most of the range of C. horridus, except the Atlantic coastal plain north of South Carolina; a third is restricted to Missouri. An analysis of molecular variance revealed very low support for the conventional two-subspecies arrangement (which explains only 3.5% of the variance present), whereas an alternative geographic classification dividing the range into southern, northern and western region explained 18.6% of genetic variation. The observed pattern of higher genetic diversity in southern populations, compared to northern ones, is interpreted as a result of northward expansion following Pleistocene glaciations. The morphological similarities between northwestern and northeastern populations may have evolved independently, in parallel, whereas the "canebrake" phenotype of southern populations may represent the ancestral condition. In view of the absence of reciprocal monophyly between the regional groupings, the authors of this study recommend against the recognition of subspecies, and consider C. horridus a single, monotypic species, while acknowledging the existence of population structure and extensive geographic variation within it.
Clark, A.M., P.E. Moler, E.E. Possardt, A.H. Savitzky, W.S. Brown & B.W. Bowen (2003) Phylogeography of the timber rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus) based on mtDNA sequences. Journal of Herpetology 37(1): 145-154
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RE: Crotalus Horridus Horridus antivenom
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by bush_viper17 on December 1, 2004
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I would just call them what ever you want to. If you like catching snakes dont worry about all of the science crap and what everyone else has to say. Just go catch snakes and have fun.
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RE: Crotalus Horridus Horridus antivenom
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by AquaHerp on December 1, 2004
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If your talking what type of anti-venene to stock for a specific snake...I would be a little worried about all the science crap.
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