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A sad day at Matt's house
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by Dadee on December 14, 2004
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I came home today to be totally dessimated. My world came crashing down upon entering my hot room today. A baby Florida Cotton that was born in September died. Out of a clutch of 5, he was the only one to survive. He had not eaten since day one. Just a week and a half ago, I tubed him, and forced 3 fish in him...extremely small. This past weekend I forced in a small pinkie with some vitamins and some repcal calcium supp.. He had lost a lot of body mass in his tail, so this precipitated my introduction of the force feeding. This being my first real attempt at breeding, I'm at a devastating low. I had grown really attached to the quick jolts of the little fellow and now to my dismay a limp body is all that remains. Why am I writing this to the forum? Well, I seek some advice from our more senior crew. When I force fed, I didn't use a pinkie shooter, but rather some hemostats slid in to the side along with the pinkie. I also used a straw with the calcium vitamin supplement. What I'm now wondering is, did I do something wrong? Here at one moment I had a life, a chance, in my hands and now it's gone. My head it spinning and I can't make one real moment out of the blur. Please lend me your wisdom as I can't even look at a book at this moment. I feel like my damn dog died or something. If Jim H is out there and sees this post, please give me some guidance into your first born and loss. I'm now questioning my real intent on breeding.
How could I have been so wrong in this one venture? I have a gorgeous pair of captive gabby's that I would like to breed, but now I'm wondering if I have even the slightest idea of what is needed to keep neos alive. I did everything by the book, but yet my insides tell me the books are wrong. Did my lack of not using the pinkie shooter do him in? I'm sorry for the rest of the forum user's for my lack of humility, but at this moment, I'm feeling severe pain and can't seem to grasp the concept of what I've done to this small life. I know that there are always going to be chalk-ups, but this is not at all what I was expecting.
I would have never taken on this endeavor had I know that I would soon see a life snuffed out due to my lack of diligence (if that's even the cause). I'm planning on a psuedo-autopsy tomorrow, to find out if anything was ruptured, just so I can have some slight relief.
Anyone?
Thanks,
Matt
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RE: A sad day at Matt's house
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Anonymous post on December 14, 2004
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I'm sorry for your loss. You must understand that as life is part of this hobby...so is death. Often when we lose an animal we beat ourselves up excessively identifying our lack of success as total failure. Such isn't always the case. Some neonates weren't meant to survive. They are too weak to conduct normal biological and physiological functions like that of other neonates, and only the strong survive. Chin up. Brush yourself off, and try again. Perhaps the most rewarding aspect of herpetoculture is witnessing your husbandry efforts pay off when your animals reproduce themselves.
If your Agkistrodon piscivorous ssp. didn't respond to basic rearing methods then something was probably wrong.
-The Phantom
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RE: A sad day at Matt's house
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by guttersnacks on December 14, 2004
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Well, it's nice to see that you care so much about your animals and that you took it seriously enough. It's a rough hobby sometimes. In the wild, these animals are born in great numbers because most dont survive, and Im convinced it's not only to predation, but a portion of the babies are born with no real "survival" urge anyway. It's just a feeling though, it'd be hard to prove.
Persistance is the key, so just keep plugging along and give your next batch your best efforts again, and maybe the next time around...........
Tom
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RE: A sad day at Matt's house
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by Phobos on December 15, 2004
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Matt:
Sorry for your loss. I think most of us have been in the same boat at some point. The "Phamtoms" wisdom is pure & true. Take it to heart.
Al
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RE: A sad day at Matt's house
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by Trex on December 15, 2004
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Very good advice... I might add that force feeding is extremely stressful. I use it sparingly now, but would have done exactly what you did. There's a decision point where you see that your snake is starving itself to death and your only option is assisted feeding. When you get to that decision point, the snake is probably very weak already, and the additional stress may be more than he can handle. You did your best and that's all anyone can hope for.
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RE: A sad day at Matt's house
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by JRHarrison on December 15, 2004
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Not all animals will live. I have had whole clutches die for no apparent reason. Nature is unpredictable and probably nothing you could have done would have safed the animal. You care about the animals and so you should continue working/breeding them. Its nice to see someone that doesn't look at the animal as how much it is worth money wise.
I have often thought about whether I am doing the animals harm by keeping them . Then something neat happens (birth of some species I have never bred )and I get fired up again.
Take care
Jim Harrison
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Listen to Jim and the Phantom....
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by MattHarris on December 15, 2004
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...it happens. In fact, I've been driving myself nuts wondering why I have large die-offs in certains species (Bothrops ssp) yet other species are very hardy (Crotalus). A friend and I are trying to figure out hte answer, as typically, I only have about a 30% survival rate in Bothrops species, but yet Crotalus spp are nearly 100%! Is it environmental? Physiologic? Natural Selection? Bacterial? What exactly???
Matt
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RE: Listen to Jim and the Phantom....
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by AquaHerp on December 15, 2004
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Many snakes, and entire clutches/broods, will fail to thrive sometimes. On occasion you may get some neonates that will respond to being forcefed and will "kick in" and take off from there. But a fair percentage of the time these are weaker animals and fail to do well throughout their lives in captivity and eventually succumb. Don't kick yourself around man. Give it another shot. Many don't make it even as far as you did this round!
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RE: A sad day at Matt's house
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by Dadee on December 15, 2004
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Thank you folks. I really did need the comraderie of my fellow herpers to bring me around. I'm glad to know that everyone, including you Jim, has had this same experience and haven't lost hope.
I have the results from my "autopsy". No internal bleeding was present, nor were any organs ruptured. That settles my debate that was tearing me apart last night. I certainly did feel that headache this morning. A few Mai Tais and I was feeling better than I started out. Keep in mind, I wasn't near any of my animals...for those weary one's who were cringing at the thought of alcohol and snakes together. I had already put the snakes to bed and retired my hooks for the evening, before I even thought of having one.
Now then, that said, I have received great warmth here and I appreciate all of the condolences. It was hard to perform that first incision this evening, but had already reserved my mind to do it for my own sake. I was so relieved to find nothing wrong inside. A huge weight had been lifted and now I'm feeling even more at ease with reading the previous posts.
You guys are great. Thanks again.
Matt
*dusting off the britches and going back at it*
P.S. My light cycle for brumation has been on a steady 6 hours on...the rest off...the room is also at a cool 50. It has stayed this way for a good 3 months now...I'm thinking with this latest event, of kicking the heat back up and bringing them out...any ideas against it?
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RE: A sad day at Matt's house
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Anonymous post on December 15, 2004
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When brumating North American herptofauna I always shut off all light entirely to simulate winter hibernacula. I have enjoyed success breeding various Crotalus, Agkistrodon, and Colubrid species brumating @ 55F for as little as 6 weeks. If this is your interest it would give you a head start for the year on neonates. A commercial edge.
-The Phantom
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