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KY law response (LONG)
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by JHarrison on December 20, 2005
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I have been asked by several people why I didn’t respond to the posts ‘aimed’ at me during the hoopla surrounding the KY laws. Now that the name calling has stopped, I will address these issues- there didn’t seem to be a point earlier because some people were already up in arms over the entire thing.
First, none of the people passing judgment read the law. Anyone can open a business like ours and exemptions for educational facilities are included. What is illegal is the breeding and selling of exotic venomous reptiles. There is a grandfather clause in the law, which means that if you have the animals before the law was passed, you can keep them. Native venomous can be kept (up to 5 wild caught individuals of each species) and with a permit they can be bred and sold. Wild caught individuals can not be sold or traded.
A permit system would have been nice, and we encouraged one. We even offered to help train officers free of charge if they decided to have a permit. The permit system we suggested would be as follows and would address the problems that many F& W officials see with the FL permit system:
1. 1000 hours with proof from sources other than dealers. Some officers suggest that dealers are stating that an individual has the hours in order to sell their animals.
2. Antiserum at holding facility of animals or within 1 hour away by car (in an antiserum bank not the local zoo.)
3. FL caging standards are good.
4. Pit tagging of all appropriately sized venomous animals, records of birth and death, death verified by vet.
5. Inspection of caging and holding areas once a year or when F&W deems necessary.
6. Venomous reptiles should not be in multiple family dwellings, and all neighbors and first responders would be aware that the permit holder is keeping venomous animals. A sign must be in place for safety personnel entering the house in case of emergency, so that they know what is being kept.
7. Insurance of at least 1 million per incident.
People like to use the FL system as the best example of a good permit system. However, I remember seeing lots of complaints about having to pay $100, and about having to have 1000 hours experience. KY officials felt that they could not enforce such a permit and showed information that bites and escapes by exotics were very high in FL. Also one official stated that introduced exotic species have now affected native animals and escaped animals can spread disease to native wildlife.
We attended all meetings and only at one were there any herp people. Most of the arguments at the meetings centered around big cats and primates, not herps. (All ‘inherently dangerous’ exotic animals are covered by the new law, not just reptiles.) Originally the law included requiring a vet health certificate for any animal coming into the state. Herpers were able to successfully convince the state that this was unrealistic for herps and this requirement was dropped for reptiles and amphibians. The state did listen to reasoned arguments but not to people who were posturing and preaching.. We decided to support the reg instead of a ban on all exotics, which was also considered. We were also pleased that the state decided to allow the keeping of native venomous- how many places that ban exotics allow the keeping of natives? Not many. This reg allows for exceptions for zoos, educational and research facilities, and circuses (I questioned this one.) All one has to do to be exempt is file a letter with F &W and demonstrate what category you fit into. Even when exempt, you are still not allowed to sell venomous exotic offspring. We have not sold snakes for about 10 years, so this does not effect how we make money.
Some posters said that I did not want anyone to do what I do and that all I want is money. One even called me a yuppie. I live in a cabin and chop wood for heat. I do not get paid by the zoo which is a non-profit- I live off a pension I have from being a police officer. Since KY Reptile Zoo is a non-profit, anyone can get information on salaries, etc.
As far as one person on kingsnake.com (who also posts here) wishing paromyxo virus on us, I can hardly express my disgust. First, we quarantine everything new for 6 months and do 2 rounds of virus testing on everything. We get less than 5% of our animals from dealers and private breeders. Most of our animals are born here or at another zoo. About 75% of our venom production animals were born here. However, our procedures are not really the point. Anyone who wants to harm an animal in order to ‘get revenge’ on a person has no business owning or being around any animal, ever. Why would you want a snake, an animal you supposedly appreciate and care about since you want so badly to be able to keep in your home, to get a horrible disease and die a horrible, painful death? And not just one animal but lots? This is a prime example of someone who is keeping snakes for the wrong reasons. If you don’t’ care about the animals, you shouldn’t have them.
I started with copperheads and rattlesnakes which any one can keep in KY without a permit. So as far as stopping others from getting started I don’t see it. Some states don’t allow keeping any venomous. Georgia allows native venomous but not native non-venomous- those posting from GA have not changed the law there or gotten the permit down to where someone could afford it for exotic venomous. Some said they would never want to visit KRZ- sorry you feel that way but it will have no effect on our gate receipts. Ask any herp society or any one that has visited that was a herp person who called in advance- we don’t charge herp people. We did not see an increase or decrease due to the posters not visiting. We get most of our money from standing orders for venom from long time customers.
I have supported responsible keeping of venomous reptiles and will continue to do so. But some here think I have more power over KY officials than I do. I have no power. As far as money to fight the law KRZ does not have deep pockets. It costs the zoo enough for me and Kristen to take time from work to attend meetings, write letters, and make phone calls. I don’t remember any of the posters standing next to us at any of the meetings.
It is true that the venomous community does not need KRZ or me. I have tried to give information and opinion when needed. One piece of opinion I gave many years ago was to police yourselves or be policed. Now that is happening state by state. All the bites and lack of antiserum has brought attention to this hobby.
An antiserum bank less than one hour away from the keeper might work but Venom 1 can not cover FL let alone the whole US. Dr. Dart and Dr. Warrell stated that Venom 1 was a bad idea because it is a crutch that keepers use that could get them killed. Time is toxic effect which means the longer it takes to get antivenom the more tissue and organ damage can occur. Venom 1 is a back up and keepers need to have their own antiserum. Luckily most bites don’t involve a lethal injection or more keepers would be dead now. When too many people get involved the media gets a hold of the story and law makers then find out about the incident. This is how laws get started. Two exotic bite deaths in OH, escaped monkeys and big cats got the attention of KY lawmakers- this led to KY laws, not Jim Harrison or KRZ.
I was asked what reptiles were dangerous. The list that KY has can not be argued with. We (myself and other herpers in KY) did make sure that boas and pythons were not included, and the native hognose snakes were removed as well. Headlines in Reptiles Magazine and other places called this a ban on exotics which is not true. It is a regulation on dangerous exotics that has a little wiggle room for those that want to follow the rules.
No law is perfect and no one is perfect. However, some of the posts were very childlike. I don’t have to agree with your opinion and you don’t have to agree with mine- we can agree to disagree. However, state your case with facts and act like an adult.
Read the law. If you have a problem with me don’t hide behind a computer call me at 606-663-9160 or come talk in person.
Jim Harrison
KY Reptile Zoo
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RE: KY law response (LONG)
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by MoccasinMan on December 20, 2005
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I am sure you will be getting many many responses to this post as this is a controversial and emotional issue. I, for one, would like to know where I can read what the final legislation actually is.
We here in NC are also facing a similar bill. From some of the language that I was able to glean from your law it seems to come from the same API/PETA written text that was submitted here. I am very upset that these special interests have weaseled their way into the politics of so many states. I am idealogically opposed to government regulation of every aspect of my life, and in NC there are no facts supporting the case that these animals pose any immediate threat to the general public. I agree that people must take personal responsibility and secure ready access to antivenom.
Because of the chain of events triggered by a big cat incident here in NC, I feel that some kind of inherantly dangerous animal legislation may be inevitable. My interest is that the end results be fair, reasonable and not exclusionary to everyone who doesn't fall into the catagory of "academic elite".
We have worked hard to educate and make in-roads with the legislature. I have been appointed to an advisory panel making suggestions to the legislature on how this bill should go forward. I would like to talk to you and get some feedback.
I will call you soon.
Thank you for your candor,
Andrew Wyatt
North Carolina Association of Reptile Keepers
NCARK
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RE: KY law response (LONG)
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by JHarrison on December 21, 2005
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Thanks for the answer. Here is where the final laws are (at least one place):
http://www.herptrader.com/ekrshow/laws.htm
Jarrod Greer was nice enough to post them on his swap meet site.
Please note there are 2 laws- one for native wildlife and one for dangerous exotics. Both are at that link.
Feel free to give us a call. Being willing to compromise will help you in your efforts to produce a just law and not an all out ban.
Jim Harrison
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RE: KY law response (LONG)
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by hydrodynastes80 on December 23, 2005
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Jim, there are several reasons why quite a few people got upset over the new Kentucky regulations. I have heard from a few different people who live in Kentucky and each had the same reasons. They say that they don't feel that they should only be allowed to own native venomous. A friend of mine from Kentucky brought up an interesting point. There are only 4 venomous species to be found in the state: copperhead, cottonmouth, timber rattlesnake and the pygmy rattlesnake. There are several groups who are petitioning to have the timber rattlesnake protected, so soon there will be only 3 species which can be collected. And they all say that in all the many years of herping there, none of them have ever seen a pygmy rattlesnake after looking year after year for them, so that really only leaves 2 species that can be readily available for collecting.
Another point that some of them made is the 5 per each native venomous species limit. The new regulations states that native venomous can be bred and sold. What if a person has his 5 snake limit on copperheads that he caught but can't get them to breed after having them for a year? He really can't turn them loose and go collect 5 more to try again, because they have to be accounted for by the state. Also, even if he could turn them loose, then there is the risk of a disease possibly getting released into a wild population of snakes just because the person had to let them go in order to get 5 more snakes to keep up with the regulations. Also, the snakes couldn't survive in the wild after being housed in captivity for so long. The new regulations forces the person to be stuck with his current collection and leaves him with little room to make any changes in that collection.
All of them agreed that the annual fees associated with maintaining a collection is not worth it when they can only have 4 species and soon to be only 3 species. As far as your statement...." Anyone can open a business like ours and exemptions for educational facilities are included". Someone told me that is easier said than done. I know a person in Kentucky with over 30 years venomous experience and a solid record who tried unsuccessfully to get the permits that are required to open a business like that.
As far as people who claim that you are only in it for money, anyone with any common sense knows that is not true at all. You actually provide a life saving service by risking your own life to contribute to the making of antivenin which might be used to save those people's lives one day. We should all be grateful that you do what you do. I hope I never get bitten, but if I ever do, I can thank people like you for contributing to saving my life.
I really take no sides on this issue regarding the new Kentucky regulations, I only wanted to give a little insight into why some people are a little upset. On the other hand, I also know a couple of people who have venomous collections in Kentucky who say that the new laws really have almost no affect on them, except for a fee. It is unfortunate that a lot of people bashed you over this issue and didn't debate it in a civil fashion with you. Most of those doing the bashing don't even live in Kentucky. You are correct in stating that if venomous keepers in Kentucky were so concerned about the new regulations, then why didn't more of them come to the meetings and voice their opinions?
I wouldn't take any of that bashing personally if I were you, sometimes these herpers just like to vent their frustration in a verbally agressive way. By the way, is the KRZ open all year? I might be heading up that direction to visit relatives in March and would love to see the zoo's collection. I have heard that it is an exceptionally well maintained and an impressive collection as well. Take care Jim!!
Dan Rigby
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RE: KY law response (LONG)
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by JHarrison on December 23, 2005
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Dan,
Thanks first for the view you have gotten from other KY keepers. The fact is that there was already a law passed during the monkeypox scare that regulated transportation and sell of native /exotics. Nobody was following it until there were several alligator escapes. If you imported any animal in last 2 years you needed a transportation permit($25.00 per shipment or annual $250.00) To breed and sell natives last time I checked(we have to have a permit to sell native venoms)it was $100.00 a year. To bring in exotic venomous you need to have the Mayor of your city or judge of your county sign a release to get the permit.(This was the old permit system before the new law.) Part of the problem with releasing is spreading viruses after and animal is in captivity. A person can buy as many captivity born natives as he/she wishes. This would probably be better for starting a breeding group . Your points are valid though.
I am surprised that someone did not get the permit to open a business. If they are not selling exotics and have a educational exhibit or do research then with documentation F&W should issue it. Also if their city or county names them the zoo of that area they can get a permit.
We also got phone threats over this issue.
We are open only on weekends in March but if you call and give us a heads up we can arrange a tour. Just make sure you tell who ever answers the phone that you are a herp person.
Jim Harrison
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