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RE: no way this isnt good
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by keyz on February 26, 2007
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firstly you have obviously all jumped on the back of this thread I see yes Al's vids are good! yes snakes kill animals for food, yes i hand feed (did) my boa thats my choice!! you didnt know it was me feeding the snake in the picture band thats not the issue either im not the one in question so a dig like that is quite petty for someone of your standing I would expect better,
and this thread goes to show the attutude of herpers over the pond, compared to most that i have spoken to over here, I was on the related videos and they are innapropriate, it just seems to me that all you lot want to do with the exception of 2 of you all want to jump up in arms to say how wonderful Al's videos are, yes i agree they are but as I stated above it was the other vids that wont/haven't gone down well,
Quite simply I thought that some of you may have understood what I was saying, I wasnt slating Al I wouldnt I respect him, and also most of you who have posted I do respect you to to an extent . so can we stay on topic and out of Al's ass please, PEOPLE ARE NOT HAPPY ABOUT SEEING LIVE FEED VIDEOS. Its classed as cruelty here simply because the live food item wouldnt be in there unless put there on purpose by you to which you know the animal will be killed, IM NOT SAYIN THAT BOTHERS ME ATALL BUT ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARENT AWARE OF WHAT WE DO HATE IT!!! THATS THE TOPIC. so I standf by whast i said and ill change my profile pic to a more appropriate picture also, keyz.
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RE: no way this isnt good
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by Rob_Carmichael on February 26, 2007
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You opened yourself up to criticism by not making it vividly clear what you were getting at (one of many pitfalls of trying to communicate via emails/forums/electronic media). You also opened yourself up to criticism when you criticize someone else and then show a picture of yourself hand feeding a boa. Sure, it's YOUR choice but it's no different than the choice that keepers make to feed live. Feeding a boa by hand is just as irresponsible as putting a video of a live feeding on the "air" (actually, it is probably worse because you showed a complete lack of respect for your animal). And, your comment about the "other side of the pond" was completely unnecessary and a bit offensive.
Now, I will say that you and I share one common ground and that is the videotaping of a live feed if projected in the wrong manner. I didn't have a chance to go back and watch the video but if done in the wrong light, it could send out the wrong message to the average person (particularly animal rights folks). Other points (just so that you know that I am not jumping on anyone's bandwagon):
- I use live video of venomous snakes feeding on live prey to use in college lectures, etc. It is an invaluable tool as a "live" live feeding is not practical for safety reasons (in front of a college class). I also have an issue with putting a video of a venomous snake killing a live rodent for everyone to look at. I think it does put "us" in a negative light and does give more fuel for extreme animal rights groups and legislatures to continue to slam our hobby.
- I am adamently opposed to the practice of feeding "stunned" prey to captive herps for two reasons: a) I think ethically, it's wrong - a prey animal should not have to suffer needlessly, and b) feeding stunned prey can actually be far more dangerous to feed than a live prey w/its wits. A stunned animal is in full survival mode and can become far more aggressive and much more erratic. It's a foolish practice in my opinion and, once again, puts us in a negative light.
- I have kept venomous herps for decades and honsetly see no correlation between live versus dead in terms of longevity and the ability to aid in digestion. I feed exclusively dead prey and even holdouts soon adapt to a f/t diet. These animals feed, defecate, feed, defecate and have been doing so for many years. They have, in many cases, outlived their natural counterparts whose only option is to kill live prey. So, the comment on venom aiding digestion is a bit more complicated than merely saying "venomous snakes need to inject venom as it aids in digestion". I will say, however, that for many of my venomous, I do initiate a strike to allow the snake to envenomate it's already dead prey so more research needs to be done.
So, there are folks on "the other side of the pond" (I sense some pond envy with you....don't blame you, North America is a wonderful place to live) who do agree with some of your comments but you will undoubtedly find something wrong with what I said.
-
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RE: no way this isnt good
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by tj on February 26, 2007
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"PEOPLE ARE NOT HAPPY ABOUT SEEING LIVE FEED VIDEOS. Its classed as cruelty here simply because the live food item wouldnt be in there unless put there on purpose by you to which you know the animal will be killed, IM NOT SAYIN THAT BOTHERS ME ATALL BUT ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARENT AWARE OF WHAT WE DO HATE IT!!! THATS THE TOPIC."
We have those people on this side of the pond too, they're called PETA freaks, animal right's activists, and treehuggin'hippies. Ignore em', they won't go away, but it really p!sses them off when they see their preaching doesn't affect you. Eat some chicken and steak while you're at it, and make sure they watch you lick your fingers real good when you're done. Moral of the story? You can't please everyone, so why try? Once you please them, they'll look for something else. It's a circle that revolves around them.
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RE: no way this isnt good
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by Phobos on February 26, 2007
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Hi Everyone:
I almost need a PR assistant just to keep up with all of the treads (positive & negative) involving my videos.
I seldom, feed live anything to my animals. I buy my stock from Rodent Pro who euthanize their feeders under the direction of a Vet. The only ones who get live animals are the Echis which usually don't eat F/T. Even then, once they strike, I usually catch the prey item and quickly end it's suffering.
My videos are not all about the blood lust that seems to be pervasive on "feeding videos" on the many websites. The videos are to teach about the snakes feeding behavior and their "strike mechanics, not to watch the prey item die before your eyes.
Al
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RE: no way this isnt good
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by Buzztail1 on February 26, 2007
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I have removed two posts from this thread for undue name calling and such.
You guys can keep that to the emails and it is not welcome here.
If either of you would like to repost without the unnecessary baggage, go ahead. Try to keep it in the context of the thread.
Thanks,
Karl
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RE: no way this isnt good
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by petra on February 26, 2007
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"Why do you feel it isn't good for the snake? Just because it is F/T doesn't mean the isn't injecting it's venom."
Well my snakes do not inject the venom...they find it and start swallowing it.
"They have, in many cases, outlived their natural counterparts whose only option is to kill live prey. So, the comment on venom aiding digestion is a bit more complicated than merely saying "venomous snakes need to inject venom as it aids in digestion". "
I didn't say they need to. I said it helps them to digest. I honestly cannot say to what extent it benefits the snake but I know for sure it doesn't harm it so I prefer to be on the safe side.
I'm not sure if comparing which snake outlived which proves anything. You could have two siblings with an identical diet and one may outlive the other by few years...You cannot tell if the said snake would have lived longer or shorter if fed live or F/T.
"I use F/T rats etc but this stuff is sickening, mishandling of snakes, improper feeding equipment and general incompetance here is the address to the videos please tell me what you think,
regard,kieron"
Kieron, you wanted to know what we think so I guess I wrote what I was thinking about feeding live. I had no intentions to offend you.
I do agree with one thing. There is a lot of people out there that enjoy feeding live so they can see it suffer. That I find sickening. I don't see the fun in any animal suffering - to feed live prey is just out of necessity for me - not fun.
"I do initiate a strike to allow the snake to envenomate it's already dead prey so more research needs to be done"
I cannot do that with my WDB - he doesn't always aim right and I got worried he'll break his fangs on the hard hemostats.
" I am adamently opposed to the practice of feeding "stunned" prey to captive herps "
Well, if I have a snake that will not eat unless the prey is alive, I prefer stunned. If the animal is almost dead - it's not moving just breathing I don't see how is it going to bite. I have seen nasty bites in the snake's eye...and I just don't want to risk it.
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RE: no way this isnt good
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by keyz on February 28, 2007
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Petra that is an extremely valid question as I saw my Western Hognose "chew" on his food before beggining to swallow it, which lead me to think that maybe he was envenomating it for digestion purposes it was certainly interesting feeding behaviour none of my other snakes displayed. Karl I agree with the posts you removed (and if i didnt tough) you are the person who says what goes;), and Al thankyou for been so diplomatic about this as you could have responded in a very different manner, thankyou, keyz.
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RE: no way this isnt good
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by venom on February 28, 2007
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As far as the digestion argument....
Remember that freezing the food breaks down the cellular membranes and makes it easier to digest as well.
So either way can be argued to aid digestion.
Personally, I feed everything F/T or prekilled that will eat it, and live to those that refuse otherwise.
Anyone who has dealt with a stubborn molossus knows after awhile, you'll try just about anything.
For "pet" snakes, I always advocate prekilled or F/T and a seperate feeding enclosure attempt to lessen the degree of feed response to hands.
As to the videos, you can tell some are serious and educational (like Al's) and some are pure thrillkill twisted crap. The thrillkill vids are bad news - some of them even start to indicate some serious "issues" that the film maker may have, the educational, purposeful vids, I don't have a problem with.
We all have to remember though, what's the biggest public draw with displayed crocodillians? Feeding Time. The general public has a morbid sense of curiousity about many things. After all, that's what makes many herps unique- thier predation techniques. Venom, massive brute force, caudal luring, camoflage, etc. But like I also said, there's the antisocial "Hey lets make this animal kill that one" kind of deal too.
So theres my 2 bits on the topic for what it's worth.
Also like Karl said previously - keep it mature, petty bickering and name calling = deleted posts!
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by Cro on February 28, 2007
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Interesting discussion on if venomous snakes need to envenomate their food to aid in digestion.
While the injected venom surely starts the digestive process, we have to remember that a huge number of snakes inject no venom at all, and they all seem to be able to digest their food quite well.
Are the digestive systems of venomous snakes and non-venomous snakes so different, that one would require venom to aid digestion, and the other would not require it????
Best Regards JohnZ
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