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RE: Keeping Eastern Indigos
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by Kingetula on July 16, 2008
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John, (and others)
What is the diffrence in personality between the Eastern and Texas?
I've never had the chnce to be around any Indigo (besides zoo's and the like) so I'm not sure why the demand for the Eastern was always greater?
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RE: Keeping Eastern Indigos
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by Kingetula on July 16, 2008
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http://www.indigosforever.org/index.php?pid=4
Florida:
Eastern Indigos are illegal to keep in Florida without a permit. These permits are extremely difficult, and often nearly impossible, to obtain. There is no breeding permit in Florida and all captives must be maintained to prevent prevent breeding.
So I ask why? Why can't someone with a permit that is extremly hard to get not allowed to breed and or breed and release?
I'm sure this isnot the case but it seems that their might be someone wnating these snakes to vanish for good??? Why make laws to prevent these snakes from reaching healthy population? Why not support those who are qualified to start breeding programs. The law still can their nose in people's butt's and keep track of who breeds, how many hatched etc...
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RE: Keeping Eastern Indigos
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by Kingetula on July 16, 2008
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Sorry one more question
When the law passed that this snake couldn't be owned in Florida what happened to those people who had these snakes before the law? What happened to the snakes?
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RE: Keeping Eastern Indigos
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by Cro on July 16, 2008
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"What is the diffrence in personality between the Eastern and Texas?"
They are almost the same. If raised to be used to being handled, they will be large, gentle snakes. If they are rarely handled, they can be a bit nervous and high strung.
Coloration is very similar also, although the Texas Indigos tend to be more brownish, and the Easterns tend to be more blueish / black, and some Easterns have the brown or red on the throats.
The personality of a wild caught Indigo snake can be downright evil. Back when they were legal, I purchased two 7 foot wild caught males for breeding purposes. They were some of the most nasty, biting, wicked snakes I have had to deal with. Those strong jaws they have produce a very nasty bite.
As far as what happened when the Federal / State Indigo snake laws were passed. Well, I shipped the two nasty tempered snakes to Europe, and the other nice tempered animal that I had raised from a hatchling made its way to the North Carolina State Museum, which had a great reptile collection at that time under William Palmer.
Hope this helps.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Keeping Eastern Indigos
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by Cro on July 16, 2008
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I think the problem was slapping the Federal Endangered status on the snake.
If it had been kept as Endangered or Threatened or Special Concern in States, then folks from Scientific Institutions would have been able to keep them and breed them in more number than are now available.
Once that Federal Statute was added, they kind of became like Bald Eagles. Very difficult to get permits for, and CITES regulations, etc. It clearly was a mistake for Federal listing, but when do the Federal Government folks do things right ? It kept many folks who could have helped build up the populations from being involved in the recovery of the animals.
A lot of the Indigo population studies were faulty, and the protection was based "research" that was later proven to inaccurate. For instance, there was a large reserve area in Georgia owned by a major University, where a bunch of Indigo Snakes were tagged and released into a Gopher Tortiose Community.
The idea was to help establish them in an area where they were not living and help these poor "endangered" animals. However, when the researchers went back to check on the snakes they had released, they found adult Indigo Snakes there that were not tagged. It turns out that there was allready a staple population of Indigo Snakes in that area, and that the "researchers" just did not know how to find Indigo Snakes when they first determined that there were supposed to be no snake there.
So they over populated the area with Indigo Snakes, which were allready at capacity for the area. Woops !
I will not mention the specific names of the researchers, The Assistant Curator from a Zoo, or the University, or the Professors, or the Game and Fish and Federal Agency individuals involved, but you can guess. Lets just say they are well known to the herp world, and some of them have written many books, and have graduated many grad students at now closed research labs.
For what it is worth, if you are willing to work at it, getting a Federal Permit is possible, and they seem to be relaxing the regulations some. If you get the Federal Permit, then the State Permit should be much easier.
I would suggest you become a member of the Indigos Forever Web Site at:
http://www.indigosforever.org/index.php
Some of the members there are also well known members of this site, and have managed to wade through the Federal and State muck to obtain Eastern Indigo Permits. They are the experts to contact if you really want to know how to own an Eastern Indigo Snake.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Keeping Eastern Indigos
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by PitVipers on July 20, 2008
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I disagree with you John Z. I have collected both Eastern and Texas Indigo's in the wild and the Texas has a MUCH more nastier dispostion.
I have bred both species in captivity and again, c.b. Texas' are truly meaner! LOL!
I was raised in Florida and have caught many Eastern's. Never have been bit by an Eastern I have caught in the wild. Texas specimens WILL always bite the snot outta ya! LOL!
Randal Berry
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RE: Keeping Eastern Indigos
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by Cro on July 20, 2008
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Randal, perhaps I just got lucky and wound up with the only two Eastern Indigos on the planet that bite, LOL.
Those two snakes were just bad news. I bet the folks who wound up with them in Europe were not thrilled with the temperment.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Keeping Eastern Indigos
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by PitVipers on July 20, 2008
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John, I probably should have paraphrased that statement with, sure, Eastern's will bite!
I have found it's a feeding response when opening the cages. I remove them with a hook, and once out of their enclosure, they never offer to bite. I have chased many in Florida and grabbed them with my hand and have never been bit! Never stuck my hand down a Gopher burrow though, while catching them! (you never know what else might lurk in there) LOL!
Best,
Randal
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RE: Keeping Eastern Indigos
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by Cro on July 20, 2008
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Randal, yep, that feeding response is something to be carefull about.
The smaller Indigo that I raised from a puppy always thought that when the cage was opened, that he was going to get fed. If I had thrown a pine cone or tin can into the cage, he would probably have eaten it, LOL !
I found out that my younger brother was sneaking into the snake room when I was not home, and feeding that Indigo hotdogs to entertain his friends, LOL ! No wonder that snake grew so fast !
Right now I have a pair of juvenile Texas Indigos that are easy to deal with. They do not bite, but one is flighy and nervous, and the other is very calm. I try to handle them fairly often, as I want them to grow up to be well behaved around people.
One of the few North American snakes that I never found in the wild is the Texas Indigo. I found several DOR in Extreme South Texas, but never had the pleasure of catching a live one. I was always more interested in getting to West Texas in search of lepidus, so never spent more than 2 days at a time in the range of the Indigo. Hopefully, Texas will change that bad law and allow road cruising again. Shure would be nice to get back there and try to check that critter off of my list.
Best Regards John Z
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