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RE: hognose venom
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by BGF on November 14, 2009
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One thing more: there is no novelty in the raising of antibodies in humans. This has been done in every type of animal injected with any foreign protein, the human hairless primate is no exception. SO it is not pioneering or cutting edge in any way shape or form.
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RE: hognose venom
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by venominme on November 14, 2009
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Haast is now ninety-eight years old and no longer milks snakes or is at risk for snake bite. But he continues to inject himself with venoms. In an article from the Miami Herald it says, “Haast is still trying to prove a point: He'll go to his grave believing venom can heal.” and, “ he claims the venom has helped him live a long and healthy life”. He is directly quoted, saying, ''I could become a poster boy for the benefits of venom,'' Haast jokes. ``If I live to be 100 I'll really make the point.'' and, in this part, “Originally, the shots immunized Haast against snake bites, an occupational hazard. Now, he believes, the long-term benefits of the shots have spared him from many of the maladies of old age. ``I feel like a man in his 60s.''
I present, as evidence, one William Haast, that an argument can be made to change your number “zero” to, at least, a “one”. Other than that, your points are very well taken and very welcomed as a top venom researcher.
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RE: hognose venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 14, 2009
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Thanks Brian very good ,so now I am understanding a little more.Norman thanks and I will go read the ones I have not.
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RE: hognose venom
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by AquaHerp on November 14, 2009
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Dr. Fry beat me to the punch here.
As a person simply keeping snakes in captivity, be it one at home or a hundred in a zoo, there is little reason to self-inoculate. There is a greater risk in securing the animal to extract venom than going through the routine of general husbandry. In 30 years of routine husbandry I have never taken a bite, nor has nearly every person I know that slings vipers for a living. It's the "up close and personal" work such as extraction, examination, restraint and medicating that seems to have one on the wrong end of the venom glands. If a person is using proper measures to move a snake from point A to point B, the risk should be minimal; certainly not warranting the need for self-inoculation.
As for this being a medical necessity, I myself, and most others in the biomedical realm, just don't see it. There is good antivenom out there and this has made death via snake a rarity in places where proper medical care is available. In remote and economically deficient areas where medical care is not available, why should one expect that the "inoculating drug" would be available to these people either? And if anyone thinks that I am going to get a blood transfusion in South Asia, think again! Many of these people die daily from diseases that we take for granted or many youngsters have not even heard of because we have all but virtually eradicated these here via vaccinations and/or antibiotics we pick up at WalGreens for $4.00. There is no reason to expect that people in these areas are going to be routinely inoculated for snakebite when they can't even receive medical care on a baseline tier. If we truly want to reduce the mortality from snakebite in these remote areas, let’s get these people some shoes, build some decent roads, erect a hospital nearby and funnel this attention in the direction it really needs to go. For now, and I am sure that I will get flamed for this; I don’t see a need for SI even if it did work. I would not benefit from it. I handle so many species with a wide array of venoms that I could not possibly inoculate myself against them all. Joe Snakeman, if using proper tools and attention when handling his snakes at home would be better off relying on antivenom than SI. So far, all I have seen, and this is where I believe the machisomo comment was born, is many (did not say all) self-immunize so that they can drop using logical handling techniques and forego safety with their own snakes. Free handling to impress the party crowd or post a neato picture on the internet.
Use common sense and above all, use the proper handling equipment.
Incidentally, my grandmother is 94 and going strong. My other grandmother was pushing 100 when she passed. If I am fortunate enough to live so many years I imagine that I won’t attribute it to the times I was envenomated, rather I’ll give credit to good genes.
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RE: hognose venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 14, 2009
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Doug I read some where that 40% of world snake bites could be prevented with a simple pr of shoes.That would be a bit cheaper than av.We in the us do not realize how good we got it most of the time for sure.
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RE: hognose venom
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by venominme on November 14, 2009
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Great post, AquaHerp. You know in your business there is probably very little risk of a fatal accident among the viper slingers because you have proper antivenom available and are prepared in case of an accidental envenomation. You take great care. I’m sure you have met people who still consider it to be really dangerous, foolhardy and unnecessary to even keep them alive at all. Probably see no use for your facility. I’m glad those people don’t get to decide, because I’m sure you provide a great value in research and I hope many more discoveries lie ahead for you and venom researchers everywhere. I see no reason for anyone to flame anything in your post.
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RE: hognose venom
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by CAISSACA on November 17, 2009
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Venominme: Sorry, Bill Haast's example proves nothing. The plural of "anecdote" is "anecdotes", not "data".
The only way of establishing whether SI has any health benefits would be to take a cohort of people starting SI and following their state of health, immune system etc. for many years, and compare them to a similar cohort of non-SI individuals. And, really, to be genuinely scientific, you'd need to make the study double-blind and placebo-controlled, i.e., a randomly selected subset of the self-immunisers unknowingly inject themselves with fake venom. Not likely to happen, of course, so I guess we will remain in the realm of baseless speculation for many years to come.
And as an aside, at the risk of committing an act of blasphemy, I am still mystified by the number of people who consider someone who has taken +/- 200 venomous bites as any kind of hero. My first reaction would be to consider him the world's worst snake handler. I mean, seriously, how would you react to the statement "Hey, guess what, I have had over 200 car crashes. Wanna go for a drive?"
OK, I know he has done things others haven't and had more snake interactions than anyone else, and some bites are inevitable in that context, but 200 bites??? I know people who have done over 100,000 venom extractions and been bitten 2-3 times - that's the sort of track record I can respect....
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RE: hognose venom
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by venominme on November 17, 2009
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I once worked at my local animal control. One day a guy from the health department walked by and noticed my name tag. He says, “Hey I know you. You’ve got more bites on file than anyone else in the county!”. Was I the worse animal handler or just the guy that took on the baddest ass animals in the county? Neither accusation or claim would be accurate. Turns out I actually was the only one filling out the dumb form every time, which I promptly stopped doing to let some noob inherit the title. Haast is my hero, treat lightly, bud. Some would count a dry bite, slight nick with a fang, or a slight mist from a spitter as a “bite”. And some wouldn’t.
There are other ways of establishing whether SI has health benefits but it will always start with the anecdotes of those who are doing it.
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RE: hognose venom
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by stopgetinpopped on November 17, 2009
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but Haast was counting evenomations/bites as I understand it. Which would average 3 to 4 life threatening bites per year. I have to agree with WW on that one...no one likes to hear it due to the reverence many pay the man, but like I said earlier, With that many bites, one has to wonder why snake handling methods were not altered.
If nothing else but for the safety of the animal, bites can and do damage to the snakes mouth but in that day and age most animals were very replaceable so little effort was made to keep animals healthy either.
Cheers!
T-
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