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Copperhead ID please
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by firecar96 on July 1, 2010
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I purchased these as a broadband pair, but after recieving them.... I am not so sure. My friends are saying they are not, but the guy I bought them from said they were collected in Oklahoma.
What do you guys think?
First two pics are of the male and second two are the female.
http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af341/firecar989/Venomous/IMG_4730.jpg
http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af341/firecar989/Venomous/IMG_4729.jpg
http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af341/firecar989/Venomous/IMG_4731.jpg
http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af341/firecar989/Venomous/IMG_4732.jpg
Sorry I dont know how to upload pics to this site.
Let me know
Thanks
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RE: Copperhead ID please
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by blainblain on July 1, 2010
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The first two pictures of the male appear to me to be a real nice southern. The last two pictures of the female look like a southern/broadband intergrade, but not a pure broadband.
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RE: Copperhead ID please
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by ChunkHead on July 3, 2010
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Yea, I'd say you guys nailed it. Neither is a Broadband, and the second snake shows some slight laticinctus tendencies.
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RE: Copperhead ID please
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by firecar96 on July 3, 2010
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Ok so here is the kicker. These were collected in south central Oklahoma, where according to the person I purchased them from, southerns are not found. Apparently southerns are only found in the south eastern corner of Oklahoma. So if that's the case then these could only be Osage or Broadband. :/
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RE: Copperhead ID please
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by Cro on July 4, 2010
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This is a great example of why the copperheads are all being re-classified.
There are far to many intergrated populations, and clear-cut divisions between the various sub-species no longer exist in many of the populations.
Soon, those sub-species will be eliminated, and we will see an elevation to species status, leaving us with 3 copperheads instead of 5. Then your problem of what they are will be solved.
Just give the science about another year to be published, and catch up with your snakes.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Copperhead ID please
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by ChunkHead on July 4, 2010
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I wonder if the new science will actually fix anything, or how it will be received by the average herper (most of whom are not scientists). Even though I have a background in evolutionary theory and understand why and how scientists determine what a species is and how a particular species is defined, I steadfastly refuse to call a Canebrake a Timber rattlesnake.
Similarly, I recognize the distinction between at least 4 of the recognized 5 subspecies of copperhead (I still have problems on occasion telling some Osage from some Southerns), but there is a serious degree of gene flow to contend with. As an example, a friend of mine collected some Broadband copperheads in an area that was far outside the known distribution of Trans Pecos copperheads, but these Broadbands expressed characters typically associated with TPC (inverted U's and a dark belly).
I know of the proposed regrouping of copperheads, but I'm not sure I am buying them yet.
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RE: Copperhead ID please
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by theemojohnm on July 4, 2010
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John nailed it !
I pretty much have the same post saved, just haven't gotten around to posting.
It's a copperhead.. In truth, many of the Copperheads that wind up in the reptile trade are intergrades. The only way to know for sure, would be to take a detailed look at the animals DNA. Hence the trend of many trying to eliminate the 'subspecies' classification.
They're Copperheads.. Oklahoma locality..
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RE: Copperhead ID please
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by agkistrodude on July 5, 2010
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Steve, you weren't sure if the snakes you bought from the guy were really the Broadbands that he said they were. Then you say,"Ok so here is the kicker. These were collected in south central Oklahoma, where according to the person I purchased them from, southerns are not found." If you don't believe they're Broadbands, why would you believe where they came from? Maybe they came from central GA and he BS'ed you all the way around. Take care, Marty
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RE: Copperhead ID please
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by firecar96 on July 7, 2010
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Marty,
I realize it is possible he could be BSing me. I was already purchasing a few Bitis species from him so I asked what else he had. When he told me he had a pair of broadbands with a gravid female for $70.00 I decided I would jump on it. I understand that may have been to good to be true, but for $70.00 I figured I woud take the chance. The person I bought them from purchased them from a different individual who told him they were from Central OK. So that person could have been BSing him. He admitted to me he was no Copperhead expert and I was fine with that. Whether southerns or broadbands doesn't matter to me, I just wanted to see if they could be positively identified mostly so I could properly label them for my own records as well as when I post the babies up for sale. What I have concluded after doing extensive research and posting these pics on several websites, is that I may never get a positive ID on them. There is so much integration in the wild with these, that most of the time one will not find a full blooded southern or broadband. Even searching on google when searching broadband and southern, most pics looked the same. Only a few would actually show large banding and no hour glass type markings. I have talked with several copperhead owners and experts who have all said they have southerns with broadband tendencies and vise versa. So at this point I'm just going to say the male is southern and the female appears to be an integrate. I obviously don't have the time or the money to spend on extensive DNA research and I really think it would be silly for a $35.00 snake. Ha ha. Obviously next time I go looking for broadbands I will request more pics and will be more aware of what to look for. I don't hold any blame to the person I bought them from and as a matter of fact the transaction went perfect. I would gldaly do business with him again.
Thank you all for your replies and I would like to thank Joe at "J&S Reptiles" for all his help.
Thanks,
Steve Rose
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