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Venomoids
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by tommyblake70 on January 21, 2011
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After doing more research on the venomoid topic I came across this article by kingsnake.com which did an unbiased third party study of the venomoid question because of all the fighting on their forums. Although the, "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" text book has already been cited as saying that there is nothing wrong with the procedure, this article also confirms everything I have argued for so far and shows how I was right the whole time and how buzztail and his gang of misfits were all wrong. It confirms my suspicion that venomoid owners have innovated a smart way to own venomous reptiles and that anti-venomoid activist are just depraved little weirdo's who want to feel like they stand for something but really just get in the way of true intellectuals with their strange, corny, ignorant, desires. I have posted the link to the webpage below and I have also copied and pasted all its contents. However, I WILL ADMIT THAT I WAS WRONG ABOUT ONE THING WHICH I WILL ELABORATE ON NEXT, but first I would like to say this:
If I ever see one of you anti venomoid clowns at the reptile show while I am handing out my pro venomoid literature or selling some of the venomoid snakes I just invested in and you scream one of your little weird ignorant slurs at me like "butcher" I am going to beat your face in so bad that when I am done with you your going to have to go have your voice box removed so you never put yourself in a situation like that, where you feel so much pain, again. Then you and the venomoids will both have something in common....you both will lack the ability to spew venom.
On another note, this is what I was wrong about- As I was sitting at my computer desk with my pet monocle cobra on my lap posting this ad I received an email from a member of this site who articulated to me the most wonderful reason why snakes should not be devenomized. It is the only reason I am willing to accept and I will admit that I was wrong when I claimed that there is no good reason not to have your snake devenomized if it is a pet.... there actually is one. He argued to me that most venomous species in the pet trade have very good temperaments and that you don't need to have them devenomized in order to free handle them. At first I had a hostile reaction to this argument but then I looked at my cobra crawling around my pencil cup and I came to a stunning realization. I remembered how I had not held him for at least 6 months after the surgery to be safe and when I did that I used hex armor gloves. I also remember how easy it was to domesticate him and how he probably didn't even realize he was venomoid. Then it hit me, I didn't need to have him devenomized to domesticate him ! I could have domesticated my pet cobra with just the hex armor gloves as most snakes aren't viscous once trained to be tolerant of humans and don't want to act aggressively once they have been domesticated ! When the writer stated that, " everyone knows this but they just don't say it because they try to be politically correct on the venomous site" I finally understood the point all of you weirdo's were trying to make. That is, you don't need to devenomize snakes in order to be able to handle them . I actually get where you are coming from now and don't hate you as much as I used to.
When I thought about it I remembered that most bites come from un-domesticated snakes whose owners just grab their heads and freak them out when they want to hold them . Other bite reports come from feeding and cage cleaning accidents while most come from wild snakes who were stepped on or something. I don't think I have ever seen a report that resulted from a domesticated snake "turning" on an owner. Snakes are too simple to "turn" only dogs do that.
However, I still use my venomoids when I do shows for kids as kids love to hold cobras. It is a great way to get them into reptiles and to educate them by example. Since most of my venomoids are guaranteed in writing by the surgeons to be venomoids, and I test them before every show, it is safe and fun for the public to hold and play with devenomized snakes. Thus I still advocate for the procedure. Now I will explain why you activist are weirdo's.
Anti venomoid activist are weirdo's because they actually intimately care about and sympathize with serpents. Don't get me wrong, I love my snakes and pride myself on how well I keep them but I mean at the end of the day they are just snakes that I have as a means to the end of educating the public, making money, and my pleasure. I am not arguing that people should own snakes who will mistreat them or abuse them, I am simply arguing that since the snakes probably don't even realize, or care, that their venom glands are missing, it is really ridiculous that people go around defending their honor and it is something only a depraved weirdo with no real life would do. I could see taking a stand if people were actually doing something that hurt the snake but they are not. Go harass the people in Texas who barbeque snakes and make them into boots. Not the people who love them and enjoy having them as pets. Or simply just go get a life. I am not giving up on this battle I will fight it until it is won and people start to realize the mistake they have made. Although I stated I want to leave I decided that I will not let you racist comments , intolerant hate mail, or miss-information discourage me from arguing a valid point that people are interested in and have a right to know about. Sorry. You started this, now I will finish it.
Here is the kingsnake.com article:
http://www.kingsnake.com/aho/faq/venomoidfaq.html#Is%20it%20possible%20to%20be%20envenomed%20by%20a%20snake%20that%20is%20'venomoid'?
FAQ: Venomoid Snakes
The issue of producing and/or keeping venomoid snakes has become one of the most contentious issues discussed in the Kingsnake.com Forums, provoking numerous heated exchanges between proponents and their detractors.
In order to try and bring some balance to the controversy, we have prepared this FAQ as a guide for forum newcomers and others who simply want to obtain impartial information.
The authors neither condemn or condone the activities explained here, but hope that readers will form their own opinions based on the information available.
David Williams [Australia]
Richard Mastenbroek [Holland]
CONTENTS
What is a 'venomoid' snake?
Can venomoid snakes still bite?
Is it possible to be envenomed by a snake that is 'venomoid'?
When I breed two venomoid snakes, will the offspring also be venomoid?
Can venomoid snakes eat normally?
Do I need to keep venomoid snakes differently from those with intact venom glands?
Can I free-handle venomoid snakes safely?
Does removal of venom glands expose the snake to any health risks?
Are all devenomization procedures effective?
Is keeping a venomoid snake ethically responsible?
Why do people keep venomoid snakes?
After removal of venom glands how long should it take before the snake returns to 100% health?
Do I need special permits to keep venomoid snakes?
What is a 'venomoid' snake?
The term 'venomoid refers to a venomous species of snake that has been surgically altered to prevent the animal from being able to inject or spray venom from its fangs.
Different methods may be employed to produce a 'venomoid', and if you are purchasing one it is important that you take steps to find out exactly what surgical procedure was involved in the case of your snake.
We will discuss individual techniques and terminology later.
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Can a venomoid snake still bite?
Yes of course!
Venomoid snakes still have fangs, and like any animal, they are capable of biting if mishandled, frightened or threatened. You should treat a venomoid snake with the same degree of respect that you would afford a specimen with intact venom glands and/or venom ducts.
Bites by venomoid snakes may become infected if not adequately cleaned with disinfectant afterwards, and you should take sensible precautions regarding any risk of tetanus or other infection.
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Is it possible to be envenomed by a snake that is 'venomoid'?
Depending on the nature of the surgical procedure performed on an individual snake, and the competency with which the procedure was carried out, there may be a small risk of envenomation if you are bitten by a venomoid.
This risk is more serious in the case of snakes that have simply had their venom ducts ligated or removed, rather than snakes who have undergone adenecotomy - the complete removal of both venom glands and/or the ducts.
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When I breed two venomoid snakes, will the offspring also be venomoid?
Venomoid snakes are the result of surgical alteration by a veterinarian (or quite often, an unqualified person performing "backyard surgery"), and consequently the lack of venom glands is not a trait passed on to offspring genetically.
As a result, keepers of venomoid snakes need to be constantly aware that the progeny of venomoid specimens do have intact venom apparatus, and depending on the species may be able to cause serious life-threatening envenomations from the moment they are born.
Many people argue that keeping venomoid snakes results in complacency among some keepers, and that they develop habits that will lead to them being bitten by the newborn progeny of their venomoid adult specimens. While this is one of the risks that venomoid keepers are exposed to, there is no published evidence in the medical literature of cases of snakebite that have occurred under these circumstances.
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Can venomoid snakes eat normally?
Because venomoids no longer have the ability to inject their prey with venom, it is not appropriate to offer live food items to venomoid snakes since it leaves them at risk of injury from their intended prey.
Venomoid snakes should only be offered dead prey items.
One argument that occasionally arises in discussions about venomoid snakes is the view that venom is integral to the ability of venomous snakes to digest prey items efficiently, and that by removing the venom glands, keepers place their specimens at a functional disadvantage. Until a scientific study is carried out to measure the digestive efficiency of snakes which have injected venom, in comparison to those that have not, this belief remains largely unproven. Many keepers who have venomous snakes have observed that when offered dead prey, some species such as Naja kaouthia and Pseudechis australis simply grasp and swallow the prey without making any apparent attempt to inject venom beforehand, suggesting that the use of venom might be less important as a digestive aid, than it is as a prey capture and immobilization mechanism.
Most venomoid snakes have no difficulty in digesting normal sized prey items provided they are maintained in a micro-environment with a suitable thermal gradient to enable normal metabolism.
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Do I need to keep venomoid snakes differently from those with intact venom glands?
Venomoid snakes do not have different environmental or metabolic needs to specimens with intact venom glands.
People who keep venomoid snakes should however be aware that just because their snake no longer has the ability to inject venom when it bites, it does still have the ability to bite, and as we said earlier, if you consider that most rattlesnakes and vipers have fangs that may be more than 12.5mm (0.5") in length, then these snakes still have the ability to cause serious wounds. Another fact to remember is that many people in the community are extremely afraid of all snakes (yes ... a pretty silly attitude, but remember not everyone has seen the light!). You may know that your snake is no longer dangerous, and may think it perfectly reasonable to let it roam around your lounge-room, but chances are your neighbours don't know, and that they are probably deathly afraid of snakes.
So regardless of whether you have a venomoid snake or not, you should keep the animal under conditions that are not just appropriate to its physiological needs, but should also maintain it in a manner that respects the perceptions of the people in your community. Last year in Florida a venomoid 3.5 metre long king cobra Ophiophagus hannah was blasted to death by a neighbour with a shotgun after it was found in his garage ... a sad and needless situation that could have been avoided if the owner had (a) properly caged the snake in an escape-proof enclosure, and (b) been on good enough terms with his neighbours that they had know he was keeping the snake and that it no longer had venom glands.
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Can I "free-handle" venomoid snakes safely?
Keepers of venomoid snakes should always act in a responsible and respectful manner when they handle these snakes.
"Free-handling" is a term that generally relates to unrestrained handling practices where the snake is not restricted in the ability to deliver a strike to the handlers limbs, body or head.
Many snakes, including those which have intact venom glands will become sufficiently accustomed to handling to tolerate it without attempting to bite the handler, and many keepers have handled venomous snakes for many years in such a manner without having been bitten.
One of the attractions in keeping venomoid snakes is clearly the ability to handle a species such as Naja kaouthia, Dendroaspis polylepis or Bitis nasicornis in the same manner than you might handle a pet Python regius. If you have a venomoid snake that you want to free-handle, we do however suggest that you consider some important questions before you do so:
Are you 100% certain that the form of surgery used to render the snake non-venomous was properly carried out, and that the snake really is venomoid?
Will other people (and especially children) be watching when you handle the snake, and if this is the case are you satisfied that your handling does not set an inappropriate example to them?
Does the handling subject the snake to unnecessary stress?
Many people consider that as reptile keepers we have a responsibility to portray ourselves in a responsible and conscientious light. Certainly there are elements within our communities that would like to see the keeping of animals (including reptiles) prohibited, and while we may disagree, realistically we have to accept that some of these groups are very powerful politically and have the ability to lobby Local, State and National Legislatures into introducing laws and regulations that can take away our own freedoms and rights. Setting an appropriate example in the manner in which we handle our captive reptiles removes one more argument that is often used by our opponents.
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Does removal of venom glands expose the snake to any health risks?
If the surgical procedure is carried out properly there is no reason why a venomoid snake should have an exposure to higher health risks than an unaltered specimen.
That being said, some species such as Ophiophagus hannah, Pseudechis australis and many of the crotalids produce substances in their venoms that may have a protective role in preventing pathogens and parasites from becoming established via prey items. Although there is no direct evidence it may be possible that these species have a greater relative risk of becoming infected by prey-borne pathogens/parasites if they lack functional venom glands. This question will only be resolved however when a specific scientific study on the role of these venom components is carried out.
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Are all devenomization procedures effective?
A number of techniques are used to render venomous snakes "harmless".
The most effective technique is called adenopathy and involves the complete surgical removal of both the venom glands and the (sometimes) the venom ducts on both sides of the head. Specimens that undergo a complete adenopathy are no longer able to produce venom, and hence can be considered to have been rendered completely non-venomous.
A less effective technique involves either the ligation or cauterization of the venom ducts. Ligation involves surgically cutting away a section of the venom duct on each side of the head, and tying the ends off with surgical cotton ... in much the same way as men are rendered sterile by vasectomy. Cauterization involves searing the ducts with a very hot implement (often a soldering iron!) in the hope of preventing venom from flowing from the glands to the fangs. Both ligated and cauterized snakes should be "non-venomous" however the certainty of this depends largely on the skill of the "surgeon".
Unless you know exactly how a snake was rendered venomoid, you would be foolish indeed to handle it without taking appropriate safety precautions. If you have a ligated or cauterized snake, perhaps you should consider treating your snake as venomous anyway!
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Is keeping a venomoid snake ethically responsible?
Discussions on the various Kingsnake forums typically collapse into a flame marathon every-time the issue of venomoid snakes is raised.
The main reason for this is that many people have very polarized opinions on the subject ... they are either very much in favour of keeping venomoids, or are abhorently opposed to it. For those who disagree with the keeping of venomoids, and/or venomoid surgery, generally believe that it is ethically wrong to surgically alter an animal for non-veterinary reasons, and that venomous snakes should be just that ... venomous snakes. These views parallel those of people in the broader community who are opposed to de-scenting ferrets and skunks, or the cutting of ears and tails in certain dog breeds.
Naturally at the other end of the spectrum are those people who believe that they are perfectly entitled to modify their animals in anyway whatsoever, and that this is one of their inalienable rights. In between we have many people whose views are a mixture of these two extremes.
So is the keeping of a venomoid snake "ethically" responsible?
This really is a difficult question to answer, especially since there no concrete ethical standards by which to measure the activity. Individuals really are free to form their own judgments according to their own value systems.
As a venomoid keeper you can however expect to come into contact with a lot of people who will view alteration of your animals as "mutilation" or "butchery", and quite a few of them will be very vocal indeed!
If you are concerned about whether or not having an animal surgically rendered non-venomous is ethical treatment of that animal, you might be guided by animal ethics legislation or regulations that apply to experimentation. For example, the National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia has a published "Australian Code of Practice for the Care and Use of Animals in Scientific Purposes" that expressly states that:
"people who use animals ... have an obligation to treat them with respect and consider their welfare as an essential factor...".
The code also states that:
"Pain and distress cannot be evaluated easily in animals and therefore investigators and teachers must assume that animals experience pain in a manner similar to humans. Decisions regarding the animal’s welfare must be based on this assumption unless there is evidence to the contrary."
In many research projects, the use of animals is justified only where the benefit to human or animal health and well-being exceeds the distress, discomfort or harm that may be caused to the individual study animals. For a person evaluating whether or not to have a snake rendered venomoid, it may be ethically responsible to consider a similar question:
Is removal of the venom glands, and the distress/stress that may be caused by the procedure justified by the end result?
If you consider this question, and believe that it is reasonable to conclude that the end-benefit (a snake that can no longer inflict a potentially lethal bite to you or another person) is appropriate to your circumstances, then it may well be ethically responsible for you to commission the surgery. Alternatively you might conclude that inflicting pain and suffering on the snake is not justified simply to enable you to keep a harmless snake (especially since there are many other species that are non-venomous to begin with)... use you own judgment.
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Why do people keep venomoid snakes?
Most people who keep venomoid snakes do so in order to be able to maintain an animal without the risk of serious injury or death (either to themselves, family members or others in the general community).
Others keep them to impress friends, family, and neighbours, or for similar ego driven reasons.
Some reptile educators prefer to work with venomoid snakes in public as an additional means of being able to display a species that is know to be potentially dangerous (and to perhaps demonstrate ecological or behavioural aspects of that species) without the risks associated with having a venomous representative of that species.
Some venom researchers who use venom glands to produce cDNA libraries in venom characterization studies are turning to the use of glands removed through venomoid surgery in preference to destroying live snakes and dissecting out the venom glands after death.
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After removal of venom glands how long should it take before the snake returns to 100% health?
Any surgical procedure carries a degree of risk, however provided that appropriate standards are maintained by the person performing the surgery, the risk of infection should be minimal, and your snake should recover uneventfully.
You should always have venomoid surgery performed by a qualified and experienced reptile veterinarian.
Normal recovery time should range from 2-4 weeks, and your animal should be monitored closely for signs of distress, infection (listlessness, swelling and inflammation, discharge of pus, etc.) or agitation (rubbing the head excessively). Consult your veterinarian if you have any concerns.
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Do I need special permits to keep venomoid snakes?
Depending on which State or Country you live in, it may be necessary to have permits or licences in order to keep a venomoid (or venomous) reptile. In general you need a permit to keep a venomoid snake if you need to have a permit to keep venomous snakes in your country or state you live in. Some species of venomous snakes that are listed under CITES, can only be kept if you have a CITES permit for that particular animal. Information on species that are CITES listed is available on the CITES Website. Keepers in the USA can access information on State Laws regarding the keeping of venomous/venomoid snakes by visiting the Coastal Reptiles Website. They have a complete list that tells you if you need a permit or not .
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© 2002 David Williams & Richard Mastenbroek.
The authors offer the above information solely for informational purposes and accept no liability either express or implied for any action taken by persons using this information for any other purpose whatsoever.
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RE: Venomoids
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by theemojohnm on January 21, 2011
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Mail this to a friend!
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I don't think you realize that I personally, already have plans to meet you. I think you will be sadly disappointed with the outcome of that.
Again, I am personally friends with many, if not all, major show producers in the state. I wish you the best of luck with your little venomoid operation. Again, my advice is, move out of PA if you want that to happen..
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RE: Venomoids
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by theemojohnm on January 21, 2011
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Mail this to a friend!
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"I actually get where you are coming from now and don't hate you as much as I used to."
Well, there is something to be said for that, I guess.
I applaud you for publicly posting that statement. However, we still disagree, and that is the bottom line.
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RE: Venomoids
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by Time on January 21, 2011
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Mail this to a friend!
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Your threats of violence on this public forum to the members of this forum causes me to think you are really STUPID!
Can't you get it? We are not interested in your beliefs being shoved down our throats.
You are a Troll with nothing to contribute to this site.
How many times do we need to tell you this?
Is your name really Bob Sloan?
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RE: Venomoids
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by Peter84Jenkins on January 21, 2011
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"However, I still use my venomoids when I do shows for kids as kids love to hold cobras."
If you truly do this, then you need to be i jail!
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RE: Venomoids
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by Rob_Carmichael on January 21, 2011
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Peter, there isn't a show/school/you name it in the U.S. that would allow such reckless behavior so the guy is full of you-know-what. Hopefully this thread gets zapped soon.
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