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My trip to the Amazon(Peru)
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by ianb on December 30, 2011
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I am going to Iquitos later in the month for two weeks. I'm a reptile enthusiast and any tips for those familiar with the area would be welcome. I have been there before briefly and realize one must get a little ways out of town to find living animals as they get killed and consumed quickly in the city. I've also once read an article on road cruising the one known paved road leading out of town.
I do plan to travel and additional 20 hrs by boat once I'm there to stay with a biologist my friend knows name David Fleck who has a lodge on land owned by the Matse Indian tribe close to the Brazilian border. This tribe is known for it use of unique hunting aides such as burning neurotoxin from the Sapo(giant Leaf frog) into their skin for enhanced sensory perception, and then there is nu nu perhaps better explained with a cut and paste:
Nu Nu is made from roasting and crushing mapacho leaves (jungle tobacco) and inner bark of the macambo tree-(a member of the cacao family) into a fine powder. Unlike like the Yopo snuff, filled with DMT resin and used by Indians in Venezuela and Colombia, the Nu Nu isn't really psychedelic. However Peter Gorman, suggests that in large doses and after the pain subsides, sometimes a television like screen scans images of jungle animals running across the inside of your brain, and that the Matses use this to work out what will be killed in the next hunt.
Fleck works with a dozen of these indians who regularly use Sapo for hunting so it is my wish that if I do make it there that I use what is offered in relation to jungle guides to do a little hunting and hopefully spot and take pictures of some nice species.
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RE: My trip to the Amazon(Peru)
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by CanadianSnakeMan on January 4, 2012
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All this sounds great and really interesting and exactly the type of thing that I would hope to do one day.
One thing jumps out at me as somthing you might want to reconsider - looking for venomous species in the jungle, hours or days away from medical care and under the influence of traditional jungle drugs. This just screams 'bad idea' to me.
If you want to go looking for snakes, that's great. If you want to experience the customs and rituals of tribal cultures by consuming the same mood-altering substances they do, that's fine too, just think twice before combining them. Even if Sapo isn't purported to be psychidelic, I'm assuming you don't have any experience with it and to take it and then go out looking for venomous snakes just doesn't sound safe.
It sounds like you have the adventure of a lifetime planned and I am envious of your trip. Be careful and come back intact!
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RE: My trip to the Amazon(Peru)
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by ianb on January 4, 2012
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Thanks for your concern I didn't mean to imply that I was going to do sapo and run off into the jungle in pursuit of hots. I have had access to sapo for a couple years now and my friend has even longer. The biologist he knows works with it a lot. It is traditionally used as more of a hunting aid than a recreational drug and it honestly doesn't make it out of the jungle very often. I think that is easier understood by those who have had experience. There are many drugs on the market that can enhance performance and cognitive ability. Sapo just happens to be both safe and natural not to mention unique. Basically, a lot of this trip is going to depend on my friend, his connections and their knowledge and advice as well as common sense and good judgment. I don't have anything too specific planned at this point, but what I meant from my earlier post generally was that through this biologist and the dozen Matses on his land, I hope to get a little assistence in locating not just venomous snakes, but all wildlife in the jungle since I know it can be extremely tough if you don't know what your doing. Whether I chose to partake in traditional hunting methods or just to follow the leader would depend on many different variables. But I also think their hunting aids make for an interesting topic.
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RE: My trip to the Amazon(Peru)
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by theemojohnm on January 4, 2012
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Just one thing that I would like to point out. The active constituents in Sapo are the hepta-peptides demorphin and deltorphin, which work as agonists at the mu-opioid receptor.
These are the same receptors that are agonised by opiate alkaloids like morphine. Just want to err on the side of caution, and point out that just about any substance with affinity for opiate receptors (especially the mu rceptors) can cause physical dependency (whether it is a synthetic opioid like fentanyl, natural opiate alkaloids like morphine and codeine, and even some of the endogenous peptides, such as the human endorphin).
Demorphin actually has a binding affinity for the mu-opioid receptor that is approximately 30 times stronger than morphine. Although, being an endogenous opiate peptide (in some animals, not humans), it's potential to produce physical dependency probably isn't as great as morphine's. Obviously, it would be hard to develop dependence to dermorphin, unless used regularly (probably daily) for several weeks, but it certainly is a possibility, if used regularly or for extended periods of time.
I think the "psychedelic" reports of Sapo, are probably due to the fact that deltorphin also has some binding affinity for the delta opiate receptor, in addition to it's mu-opiate receptor affinity. Some alkaloids, like Salvinorin-A (the active alkaloid in the psychedelic Salvia divinorum) can cause strange hallucinogenic effects.
Although, this is NOT typical of delta-opioid-receptor stimulation, and even if it was, demorphin and deltorphin are primarily agonists of mu-opioid receptors, which are responsible for typical opiate effects (and also pain relief and addiction). Theoretically, if one used enough Sapo, delta binding could potentially occur enough to make a person somewhat delirious, but that probably only occurs on occasion, at very high doses, as delta receptor binding would only occur at high concentrations (and after typical mu receptor stimulation, as demorphin IS primarily an mu agonist).
Another thing to keep in mind is typical opioid effects on coordination and reaction times. While there certainly are drugs that increase speed, stamina, coordination, and reaction times, opioid drugs, chemically, aren't one of them.. Opiate drugs CAN cause stimulation, and this reaction is actually somewhat typical in some people. (I personally have a fairly stimulatory reaction to a lot of synthetic, medical opiate pain killers. Although get a typical sedative reaction from some natural opiates, like morphine).
However, even in people who are typically somewhat stimulated by opioid drugs, reaction times are usually slowed on opioids. This is essentially a kind of "clumsy stimulation" not a clear, reaction-enhancing stimulation like is seen on amphetamines and monoamine-reuptake-inhibitors, like melthyphenidate and cocaine. (Some synthetic opiates DO have some affinity for norepinephrine and dopamine reuptake, like tramadol, but that's another topic.. LOL).
Mitragyna speciosa (Kratom) is a plant used in parts of Malaysia, which contains alkaloids mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine. It is used a primarily stimulatory substance, used by manual laborers in these regions. Though, it also contains adrenergic alkaloids (responsible for the stimulant effect), it too, is typically a "clumsy stimulation" due to it's opioid effect..
Sapo is NOT known to contain any adrenergic alkaloids, and Sapo's "stimulation" is a thought to be a direct result of it's opioid activity.. You may very well feel stimulated, but your reaction times are still likely to be slowed, so just be cautious of that. Locals who use it often, are most likely used to this effect, and to them, the stimulation most likely outweighs any "mental fog" that is caused by the mu-opioid activity. But for a newcomer, this might be something to watch out for.
Other than that, I do think that general experimentation with Sapo, is for the most part, harmless.. Just remember that any impairment in reaction times, when hunting hots, can be inherently dangerous. And, that regular, continuous use, can cause physical opioid dependency. If used safely, on occasion, in the native context, it shouldn't cause an issue though.. Just be careful when herping, and make sure that you are completely alert.
Very jealous, it sounds like a great trip.
Some of my all-time favorite species are found in that area. Have fun!
Take Care,
-John Mendrola
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RE: My trip to the Amazon(Peru)
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by ianb on January 5, 2012
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Thanks for the info John. I had to read that twice to realize it wasn't all over my head. Thankfully I took neuro psychology in college. I believe the The sapo active compounds might bind to the opiate receptors, but they are not pure like morphine or heroine. So I don't think it has the morphine-like addictive properties. At least I have never heard of it and I'm pretty sure I would have. My girlfriend thinks Sapo also contains other natural compounds which probably give a more holistic reaction, meaning it has the opiate receptor binding ingredients but may have other ingredients which may help the binding not be so strong. I'm sure the biologist who has the 120,000 acre retreat we are visiting has a lot of good information. I'll be sure not to assume sapo will enhance my abilities to wrestle anacondas although I am hoping it may enhance my sensory perception in some ways. According to my friend it does and after puking up yellow bile type substance and hitting the ground for 10-30 minutes, it become really a truely unique experience unlike any other.
I also have a another friend in Iquitos who has bought 15 acres in the jungle and built a retreat center where is is brewing his own Ayahuasca and inviting shamans out to host ceremonies. I should be able to make it out there during the trip as well. I'm sure I'll have plenty of stories upon my return. I can't wait to try some of that jungle food again!!
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RE: My trip to the Amazon(Peru)
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by ianb on January 5, 2012
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Thanks for the info John. I had to read that twice to realize it wasn't all over my head. Thankfully I took neuro psychology in college. I believe the The sapo active compounds might bind to the opiate receptors, but they are not pure like morphine or heroine. So I don't think it has the morphine-like addictive properties. At least I have never heard of it and I'm pretty sure I would have. My girlfriend thinks Sapo also contains other natural compounds which probably give a more holistic reaction, meaning it has the opiate receptor binding ingredients but may have other ingredients which may help the binding not be so strong. I'm sure the biologist who has the 120,000 acre retreat we are visiting has a lot of good information. I'll be sure not to assume sapo will enhance my abilities to wrestle anacondas although I am hoping it may enhance my sensory perception in some ways. According to my friend it does and after puking up yellow bile type substance and hitting the ground for 10-30 minutes, it become really a truely unique experience unlike any other.
I also have a another friend in Iquitos who has bought 15 acres in the jungle and built a retreat center where is is brewing his own Ayahuasca and inviting shamans out to host ceremonies. I should be able to make it out there during the trip as well. I'm sure I'll have plenty of stories upon my return. I can't wait to try some of that jungle food again!!
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RE: My trip to the Amazon(Peru)
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by theemojohnm on January 5, 2012
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The two occasions that I tried Sapo were definitely interesting.. Not typical of opioid drugs, but then again, neither is Kratom, which I have used fairly regularly for it's antidepressant and pain relieving effects.
In my honest opinion, I believe that there are other actives contained in Sapo as well, but so far, we haven't been able to isolate or identify anything with a clear action, other than demorphin and deltorphin. I tend to suspect tryptamines (but not in the classic psychedelic sense) that influence the serotonergic
system, with activity at serotonin receptor sites, being responsible for some of Sapo's "other" activity.
I didn't mean to equate Sapo use to regular morphine use, and I don't think that it's on that scale at all. But, I have read reports of minor opioid withdrawal syndrome experienced by some indigenous people when stopping Sapo, although mild. (Runny nose, sneezes, mild trouble sleeping, typical opioid withdrawal symptoms). I highly doubt that the active peptides in Sapo are found in high enough concentrations (or their action(s) specific enough) to make one as ill as a morphine addict's "dope sickness", but minor withdrawal (generally not feeling well) has been reported in some of the medical literature, and symptom-wise, is very typical of opioid withdrawal syndrome. This is also seen in Kratom use (though Kratom is somewhat more typically "opiate" than Sapo).
We even see this rarely in some drugs like Salvinorin-A (from Salvia use) which is NOT typical (Salvinorin-A being a delta opioid-receptor agonist, with a very strange action) but does happen.
I don't think that dependency to Sapo is common, likely, or even typical, but medically, is possible. The "strange" action of Sapo probably makes it a substance that would be difficult to use often enough to become dependent in any sense. As you said, it isn't exactly a "recreational" substance. It's not something that I think one can do daily for extended periods of time, or would even want to. Just be cautious.
Unless you were moving down there for a year, and using daily or multiple times daily, as a hunting aid, I don't see any real issue. Just be cautious of long term and / or regular use.
Take Care,
-John Mendrola
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RE: My trip to the Amazon(Peru)
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by ianb on January 5, 2012
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Not a problem on using caution. I read it is very engrained into the Matse culture and the poorer the hunting, the more frequent the usage. Other than that I don't know why it would be abused, but some people are just nuts. On a side note my friend knew someone who tried it after an evening of heavy drinking and that didn't go so well at all. The poor girl was extremely sick the whole afternoon. I've actually tried it twice with limited effects. Both times with 3-4 doses administered from the neurotoxin dried on a stick and brought back from Peru supposedly from a more than credidable batch. Immediaetly what came to mind was was expiration of effects due to age, but I was assured it has a long shelf life. So I finally shrugged my shoulders and assumed maybe it was best experienced in it's natural environment.
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RE: My trip to the Amazon(Peru)
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by theemojohnm on January 6, 2012
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I would tend to think that it should be stable enough to survive the trip, although being comprised of endogenous peptides, it very well might not be.
Exposure to temperature extremes during shipping, might very well be why you got limited effects. Honestly, the best way for people outside of the Amazon to experience Sapo, is probably to obtain the source. I'm not sure of their availability these days, but Phyllomedusa bicolor used to be fairly common in the pet trade. One of the local pet shops used to carry them, and I’ve seen them numerous times online from importers, for cheap. I've owned several over the years. Although, I have heard from several people that the fresh, wild caught imports seem to be best, and that results diminish over time, in long-term captive specimens.
This seems to suggest that the secretions of P. bicolor might be produced by the animal obtaining the raw precursors for the production of their toxins, through their natural diet. This is reminiscent of the Dendrobates and Phyllobates, the poison dart frogs, that are generally harmless in captivity. After being removed from the wild, the animals are no longer ingesting the precursors and base materials, used to produce their toxins, from their food. This has never been proven in P. bicolor, and considering that the primary actives are though to be demorphin and deltorphin (endogenous peptides) this might not be the case, but seems to be, based on anecdotal reports. And, it's logical to assume that some of the effects are very possibly due to other active components, that the animals obtain the precursors for, from their food.
I can easily see how co-administration with alcohol could result in an unpleasant time. The initial effects are very reminiscent of intense ethanol intoxication. Added with the fact that ethanol has the tendency to increase blood plasma concentration of many drugs (most CNS drugs, actually) this makes sense. Agonists of the opiate system are also fairly famous for inducing nausea in a large percentage of people, and co-administration with alcohol will increase this effect. (Also with additive effects on respiratory depression, though Sapo doesn't have much of a typical opiate effect on respiratory depression in my experience.)
You're making me want to make the trip ! Sounds like a great opportunity. It's good that you have some contacts in the area, and know some folks down there. Be sure to fill us in on your adventures!
PS: While Sapo isn't always an "earth shattering experience" (aside from the initial nausea), the Ayahuasca can be, LOL.. Definitely take care in traipsing about the jungle if you will be partaking in the Ayahuasca ! lol.
Also, the Ayahuasca is something best planned in advance for, both mentally and dietary, and isn't something good to do spontaneously.. Aside from potentially being very intense mentally, it is very wise to eat an appropriate MAOI diet leading up to the experience, and for a few days following. Some amino acids found in red meat act as precursors to the monoamines, and can lead to nasty medical conditions (such as Serotonin Syndrome) when co-administered with an MAOI. Is definitely worth reading up on beforehand, if you plan on using Ayahuasca. And following, the locals can probably advise you on the appropriate native foods to avoid.
Have a great trip !
Take Care,
-John Mendrola
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