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RE: Medical protocol
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by biff on April 11, 2004
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Here is a dumb question...
I wonder why zoological institutions and others who have actually obtained the permits and such (and are semi-proficient at the process) don't "procure" antivenom for both themselves and others who would want/need to keep it onhand?
My guess is it's illegal to distribute the stuff, but I'd like to hear from someone who knows.
Steve
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RE: Medical protocol
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by Trex on April 11, 2004
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Good point. Why couldn't the zoo, for example, allow me to buy, or help buy, antivenom for the snakes I have on hand? I have no problem paying my fair share, but isn't the zoo a public domain? Don't they get their antivenom from tax money? It would seem prudent to allow handlers like myself to subscribe to their data bank and make donations to help augement their supply. A lot of zoos have the attitude that it's "theirs" and you can't have it. Hell, if I had a stash and someone was envemonated, I would be more than willing to share it with them. Try buying antivenom and it's like trying to buy illegal drugs, which in a way, it is.
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RE: Medical protocol
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by biff on April 11, 2004
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Bear in mind, my earlier reply was not a slam on anyone...but I am sure a lot of people would have their own a/v if my earlier suggestion/question could be a reality.
Steve
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RE: Medical protocol
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by Trex on April 12, 2004
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I posed the question of adrenaline to the experts and recieved this response from Dr Fry:
Adrenalin has two uses in snake bites:
1) one is to treat acute anaphylactic shock
2) the other is to as premedication prior to IV administration of antivenom.
In the case of anaphylaxis, this is via intramuscular injections (ie. an epipen) and should not be given to a normotensive patient.
For the premedication, that when 0.25 mg of adrenaline by the subcutaneous route and the relative blood pressure of the patient is not as much of a consideration (unless hypertensive). In this case, intravenous antihistamines are also often given prior to the administration of the antivenom.
I regard Dr Fry's comments and opinions as gospel. This is not to say that Mr Harrison's reference is incorrect, but it goes to show you how diverse treatment can be. I plan on calling the AZA today and ask them the question of adrenaline and get their response. I'll post it here once I get it.
It's frustrating to try, in all good faith, to prepare for envenomation and take responsibility and then to be turned away by those that have unlimited access and experience in the treatment. I, too, would like to hear from others who have successfully arranged joint protocol with a local zoo or a similar institution.
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RE: Medical protocol
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by stopgetinpopped on April 13, 2004
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What Mr. Fry is saying and what Jim Harrison are saying is basically the same, just worded differently.
As far as zoo's ordering serum and selling/transfering to another person. The way the permits are set up is that each individual or organisation must have their own permits in order to maintain said serum. The exception being in the case of an emegency/envenomation. It really is not that hard to get your own serum, it is just a lot of red tape, but once you understand the process it's not so bad (for most). I believe if you go search this site you will find all of the procedures/permits to aquire the serum. Or if you have access to AZA as well.
Zoo's don't get upset so much that the serum is used in an emergency, the fact is alot ( not all) of the time the zoo had no knowledge that someone next door was keeping a Gaboon Viper, so they order enough serum to cover the keepers they have. Then that someone gets bit, the zoo gladly (yet annoyingly) provides the serum and now no longer has the serum for their keepers....so what do they do?
They could buy the serum for themselves. Or they could presume that 3 people are keeping the Gaboon Vipers in town and buy 3 times as much serum and spend that much more tax dollars???
How does the zoo prepare itself.....
what about illegal keepers, they won't notify the zoo?
What about someone new in town?
AV takes 4 things to get, time, money, patience and the willingness to do things responsibly and ethically!
It's not cheap when you stock 5 or ten different AV's
It takes up to and over a year for some Antivenoms to be available and it does take a lot of work to get!
Will they provide serum in an emergency? Yes.
Will they be without said serum for 3-12 months or more? Yes.
Will the lives of the keepers be at risk unnescessarily until more AV is recieved? Yes.
Will they be pissed off? Yes.
Would it be easier and more efficient let alone safer to stock your own AV? Yes.
Jim has a lot of reason to be ticked off, he gets hit up for more antivenom for private people in this country than any other zoo I know of. It adds up to tens of thousands of dollars and thousands of man hours where he is unprotected because some dink decided to buy a pet cobra and not get his own serum.
Many a private person is very responsible, some more so than some zoo's in this country. but the simple fact that less than 15% of the visitors to this site don't have their own antivenom makes it hard for a zoo person to not get annoyed or take many of these private people seriously!
Also, everyone says they would pay it back, yet I don't know of a single instance where that has happened!
Besides if money is the problem, than if you couldn't afford to buy it in the first place than how can you afford it after the fact. Or would it be left up to your estate (if you have one) family members don't want to pay for a treatment when you died anyway. Which is what very well could die if you don't live in the zoo's compound!
( the word "you" as I use it, is a general statement, not directed at anyone"
Just my 2 cents or much more.....
Taphillip
Taphillip
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RE: Medical protocol
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by Trex on April 15, 2004
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I've looked over this site and can't find the information needed to procure the antivenom. I see references, that lead no where and a lot of reasons why we need to get our own antivenom, but I can't find the source of supply or a reference to what red tape I need to start going through.
Does anyone know if I would be able to bring the antivenom in from Thailand? If I flew over, and bought it there?
I'd also like to ask J Harrison a question (I know he's not here now): What if someone in your area was a private collector and wanted to augment your supply, the zoo's supply, in case he was envenomated. Would you allow the purchase?
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RE: Medical protocol
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by JRHarrison on April 19, 2004
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First you can bring antisera back from Thailand but still need to have permits and an IND number.
Second zoo's are not allowed to hold antisera or bring it in for a person who does not have an IND number. So you still have to have permits. It takes time to get permits but has been done by private individuals before.
I have had an IND number for over 20 years. And the zoo also has one. When we import antisera we are held responsible for every vial we bring in. Which means we are named in any lawsuit that comes from its usage. This has happened a few times and costs us time/money to go to court.
Also you need to have the antisera within a hour drive of your hospital in case of a severe envenomation. It is best to have the antisera with you when you go to the hospital. If you have any questions you can email Kristen Wiley or myself at kyreptil@mailhost.mis.net or call the zoo between 9 am and 9 pm. at 606-663-9160
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