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RE: Educational Demonstration or PR Nightmare??
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by getyourownserum on February 21, 2003
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Oh yeah
Jason,
Do you maintain your own serum for Crotalus atrox? Or do you rely on the stocks of serum that the local hospital carries for the people who need it, not those who voluntarily choose to interact with venomous snakes?
Just wondering.
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RE: Educational Demonstration or PR Nightmare??
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by Hotstuff on February 25, 2003
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I am well aware of what was said at the demo. I was listening to the words carefully. You covered all the basics of what it is, where it's from, but I also know what the people around me were saying as well. Their focus was not on the fundamentals of the snake at hand. They were focused on the rattlesnake popping balloons, or the cobra who's head you were mock scratching. The only comments I heard from the rest of the crowd weren't pertaining to the snakes biology or natural environments. They were about how fast they strike, or how "mean" they were. Or how "easy" it appeared to handle them. Personally, I hate demos. I love to view snakes, from a distance, in the wild. And, I love seeing one up close in a properly setup and maintained enclosure. The enclosures at your facility are very nice, as is the collection. I just don't agree with the route the demonstrations take. You talk about not saying your a professional. But, that is the very attitude you are presenting now. You are unwilling to admit that, just perhaps, your demos aren't perceived the way you thought they were. I have plainly relayed the experience from the point of view of the other spectators. You ignore that info completely, and focus on what YOU consider a personal attack. Instead of admitting that your demos may need a little fine tuning. I don't claim to know even a fraction of what you do about the wide assortment of snakes at your facility. But, I do know about what I heard from the spectators, and THAT was the point I was making. Your PERSONAL views of private hot keeping are of no concern to me. I keep mine securely, and practice safe handling techniques, the rare times I have to handle her. I imagine you do get tired of hearing from ignorant people who talk about their "pet" rattler or cobra. And, I agree, in part, the majority of the general public shouldn't keep hots. But, you are doing exactly what you accuse me of doing. You are steriotyping me as an ignorant hillbilly who wouldn't know a rattlesnake from a buffalo. You don't like my scrutiny of your demonstations, fair enough. But, keep in mind, when you are in the public eye, expect a little scrutiny. It isn't YOU I was scrutinizing, it was the demonstration in general. You on the other hand, have succeeded in proving you can't take even the least little bit of criticism. You did say in one of your remarks, your not a pro, to say so would be the same as saying you know everything. But, your remarks are full of comments emphasizing that your still basically much smarter than all of us "private keepers". You can't even concede to the fact that, just maybe, some of us may actually have a brain in our heads. Or that we may even know what we are doing. Well, I suppose this remark is pointless. You obviously are unwilling to have a civil adult conversation about this, as witnessed by the private email you sent me last year, and the comments you just posted. You obviously are an intelligent man, you are well spoken in grammar and context. And, there is no mistaking, you DO know how to "handle" the snakes you exhibit. But, the point isn't about your experience, it's about your presentation. What does balloon popping prove to a common lay person with no knowledge of snakes. "Damn, that thing is one mean little mother, and fast too." That is the general point driven home to those people. Not their importance to the environment, or the uniqueness of their abilities. Just that they are something to fear, and kill when ever possible. Or worse, that they are easy to handle, and that a novice would go out and try to repeat what you do. You were absolutely right about one comment you made, you are not a professional...
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RE: Educational Demonstration or PR Nightmare??
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by getyourownserum on February 26, 2003
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I don't want too or have time too break this conversation down to a schoolyard.."My daddy can beat your daddy up" type of conversation. I don't mind a little criticism here and there, however the scrutiny you are giving is too inaccurate for me to ignore. I am not going on the defensive because you are attacking me and/or my program. I am taking offense to the fact that you did not listen to and/or understand the content of my program. If you are (and you are) the only person in the tens of thousands of people to be disappointed in my presentations than job well done. The general public see's what they want to see and hear what they want to hear, so in the balloon popping exercise I do two things. One, I entertain, by getting that desired "gasp" from the audience I also get their direct attention. Whereas, I continue to educate them. By describing and demonstrating all of the modes of envenomating an animal found in the snake world. From the primitive rear-fanged to the most advanced Pit-Viper. These snakes do not actually "bite" an animal they "stab" it. They open their mouths to 180 degrees with large mobile fangs standing straight out from the strike in order to stab the bite recipient (balloon) I also speak at great lengths about how to go and get oneself bitten. Trying to catch, kill or harass. Which I demonstrate with my feet (well out of reach) how much it takes to get most snakes to actually nail something. (sound familiar yet?)
Tiger ratsnake,
cold-blooded, sliminess, sense of smell, method of hunting, not a constrictor and non-venomous.
Burmese Python,
Size of real boas, pythons and anacondas, constriction and the ability to swallow an animal with no limbs, how a snake this large does not make a good "pet".
Mangrove Snake,
Most primitive group of venomous snakes, how their enlarged teeth deliver venom from Duvernoys gland not a true venom gland. How, just because a snake is technically venomous does not mean they are always "dangerous"
Cottonmouth,
The vipers large mobile fangs and why they have them, how they store them. The lining of the cottonmouths mouth and why they have it and how they use it.
Prairie Rattlesnake,
Only venomous snake found in this state, what the rattle is, how and why they use it. What to do if you hear it.
Monacled Cobra,
The deadliest snake in the world discussion, which snake has the most toxic venom, which snake kills the most people, elapids in general, short permanently fixed "hypodermic" type fangs. The Classic snake charmer and flute why the snake follows the flute. The relatively slow and predictable strike of the cobra ( in comparison to a viperid") which allows the snake charmer to get that much closer. the toxicity of the Asiatic cobra in comparison to strictnine and cyanide. Why so many people are bitten and killed by this snake. (cultural and lifestyle) habits as well as poor availability to reliable treatment etc. As well as a good "scratch" on the head for the desired (entertain to educate) gasp.
C. atrox,
Snake that causes the largest number of serious bites in the U.S., why, what to do if you encounter a rattlesnake in the wild (for the second time) striking distance, accuracy, speed. As well as the only way to be "LEGITAMATELY" "ACCIDENTALLY" bitten by a rattlesnake is thru catching, killing or teasing the snake. How to avoid a bite. Teach your children how to interact with all native wildlife including venomous snakes, if parents don't know they need to learn. First aid treatment doesn't work with these snakes, must get to a hospital, why first aid techniques don't work, even if described by a local family physician. The number one reason people are bitten by Rattlesnakes is so they can look at the fangs, so I show them all the fangs while telling them that now that you have seen it you don't need to look on your own.
The appropriate use of anti-venom. The shortage of serum in the U.S. as well as many jokes to entertain throughout the program.
I must have spoken of all of these subjects while you were in the bathroom? Being that you fail to mention any of them in your wonderful article.
All programs are going to have good and not so good content. I am not able to please everyone, but if I convince one person to leave the next rattlesnake alone, than so be it.
There is far more animosity from the private sector towards the zoo community than visa-versa. I deal with many responsible private individuals. However you are not one I consider a responsible venomous snake keeper ( not that it matters to you) You do not maintain serum for your snake. what if a neighbor kid got in there somehow to show his new girlfriend, what if someone burglarized your home and was bitten? etc. etc. etc. you are liable for all of the unknown "what ifs" You would be far less liable if you took all precautions, which you are not.
Recent snake bite in a zoo here in the U.S. was by a Suphan Cobra, the zoo didn't have any serum to treat the bite to one of its own keepers because a private individual in the state was bitten by his "pet" cobra and didn't have his own serum, so he used the zoo's, which depleted their stock, so they borrowed serum from another institution and now they don't have the serum to combat a bite at that zoo. People, this is a dominoe effect. Stock your own serum!! I know it is expensive and hard to get. But do it anyway. If you can't than don't get the snake. It is that simple!!
Jason,
You are welcome to disagree, I now encourage all the people that agreed with you to reread this whole article and its comments and form an opinion based on all the facts....yours and mine! I am not going to re-respond to this so I encourage you to get the last word in if that will make your ego feel better. however I will close with this thought...
Please Jason, buy your own serum before you directly or indirectly (dominoe effect) hurt or kill someone.
This goes for all.
Best Regards!
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RE: Educational Demonstration or PR Nightmare??
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by Nebrascia on February 27, 2003
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Pulled from "getyourownserum"'s reply...
"I am taking offense to the fact that you did not listen to and/or understand the content of my program."
Honestly I have to ask... how many people do you think actually did listen and understand the point you were trying to get across? I've done some demonstrations with animals at local schools and my main problem was that to get people's attention I had to point out something interesting (like that the poison dart frogs are toxic or stuff like that) and that interesting point or demonstration usually ends up being the only impression or new information they come away with (like students asking to take a dart frog and make it bite the teacher so they wouldn't have class, when I had clearly stated their toxins are on their skin and have to be ingested, and the animals I brought were CB and thus not toxic since they get their toxics from toxic bugs and they are fed nontoxic bugs in captivity, they came away with the fact that the frog was dangerous, but nothing else). By having a rattler pop a ballon you got people to be interested in the snake, but at what cost of stress to the snake and how many people afterwards could tell you anything about that snake that you said about it, other than it stikes fast and to them is really scary. Unfortunately you can present good information to people, but it may not get into their brains if they are looking for a thrill (and a demonstration on hot snakes could count as such by some). You gave them a show so why would they care about the jabber in the background?
Its a sad fact but unfortunately all too true. Being in the audience the author was able to realize this point and while he may not have been able to clearly get this across to you I feel this is what he's trying to say. I don't feel that by scaring people is the best way to get people to stay away from dangerous snakes. While backpacking my group came across a snake who was content to sit on the trail and watch us as long as we did nothing that was threatening. I told them a little about the snake while we took a water break and waiting for it to move on, saying stuff about their natural history (some snakes have live birth and snakes won't bite unless you give them a reason) and to respect them and stay away from them. After walking a half mile down the trail I told them what snake it was... an eastern diamondback rattlesnake, to the absolute horror of some of the members. They were afraid of the name, but when faced with the animal (which they couldn't even identify yet were terrified of) and told the correct things to do, they lived through the experience and had new respect for the animal. And they even remembered what I told them. Yeah they were still scared but they respected and now knew what to do when around them... and I believe respect is better than fear. Fear drives people to do stupid things (like have venomous animals for the thrill not because they have the love and experience). They still had the fear of the snake, but they also had the knowledge and respect that won't drive them to kill them, mess with them, or panic and get hurt.
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RE: Educational Demonstration or PR Nightmare??
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by getyourownserum on February 27, 2003
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I would absolutely agree with you nebrascia. 90% of any audience are what I call fence posts, they don't know what you are saying ( frankly they don't care)I concentrate on the 10% that do pay attention. They leave a program with less fear and more respect. Fear is a dangerous thing. Respect will not ever get you hurt.
A funny story that a friend of mine said in a program in the 50's that totally makes the "fence post" point.
While doing a program he noticed that absolutely no one was paying attention, it was mid California sun and the only reason people were staying was because they paid the money to watch. Anyway, during this program, just to see how many people were actually paying attention, in mid sentence about what snakes eat he added this statement...." and as you can see, no snake in the world has Pubic Hair........No One caught it. so he continued his program a little less enthusiastically.
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RE: Educational Demonstration or PR Nightmare??
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by thewildmeg on March 2, 2003
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I've just discovered this site and this message board caught my attention. I've read all the posts and I've decided to post my own opinion. I agree, if what was posted is accurate, that the demo wasn't entirely what it should/could be, and it is giving off a less desirable reputation for hot snakes. The way I see it, these demos are supposed to be educational. The major goal being to help people care about our natural world and want to preserve/conserve it. One of the pillar stones of trying to accomplish this goal is the educational demos ment to educate the public. These demos should be teaching and have a main focus on the importance of these animals to keep ecosystems healthy. Demos should not be all about the adrenaline rush of the striking rattlesnake or the flaring hood of a cobra. It is important to demostrate this to show how these animals are some of the top predators and are to be respected if encountered. But then that demostration should immediately be followed up with WHY these animals are showing this aggressive behavior. Make it 100% clear that these animals are not mean, verocious, and out to bite people, they are simply trying to protect itself from this huge animal thats hovering over it waving its feet or a balloon in its face. These animals have these traits ment strictly for survival, not to be evil. Make a point they would much rather slip away from the presence of a human unnoticed, they do not hang around waiting to rattle at someone and strike. These are wild animals, no matter how much handled by humans, and still have the main goal in life to stay alive. These demos should have the goal of having people leave that show thinking about how these animals ARE important to our world and have respect for them. Have them interested in them and thinking that they are "really cool creatures". Respecting them and caring for them, an understanding of their importantance and that we have a huge repsonsibility to conserve and preserve our biodiversity. By no means should the entire focus be on how "mean" these animals are. For they are not mean, just simply trying to stay alive. I find, even though he might seem crazy at times, that the crocodile hunter on the show on Animal Planet does a great job of relaying this message to people. He gets the audience extremely excited about the animals while showing respect and passion for them--even if they are trying to bite him. He still makes the point that this animals is acting "mean" because it is his survival trait. And if he gets bitten, it is his fault, not the animals. I encourage who ever you are in charge of the demos to start striving for this goal, this goal is the whole reason why zoos even exist. So, keep it up, for you are a VERY important tool for the survival of our biodiversity. And I respect that you do this because you enjoy these animals and want future generations to perhaps get the chance to encounter them in the wild and be thrilled of such an experience. But because of you they will be educated that they are not evil and out to get them, but are beautiful creatures living with us to be respected and enjoyed.
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RE: Getyourownserum
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Anonymous post on June 20, 2003
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Hi, I read the post telling about your presentation. If I had the opportunity to see it,judging from what you said in your post, I would find it interesting,informative,educational, and entertaining. I didn't see anything that would make me want to rush out and buy a snake(but that's a bit irrelevant, as I'm afraid of them). I don't want to kill them now, so that wouldn't happen(I just want to "live and let live" when it comes to snakes). I would simply know more about them, as I am attempting to do anyway, out of curiosity.
There's a certain group of teen boys and young men(and this I know, I have two grown stepsons,and knew all their friends) who are risk takers,and need no push in that direction. It can manifest itself negatively or positively(positively, thank God, in the case of my stepsons!)ie, join the military or become an astronaut or deep sea researcher, versus try illegal drugs, or drink to excess. My point is that your show seemed,from your description, perfectly legitimate to me.
I want to learn about snakes,because I'm curious, but have no interest in ever keeping one, or even being near one,LOL. But it seems to be a very elitist, perhaps almost defensive, group of people. Maybe because of the image problem. But being that way will only perpetuate the problem, like a Catch-22-some keepers are defensive because of the image issues, and the defensiveness contributes to the issue. Some seem to use a kind of elitism as a defense-and there we are again.
If perhaps you made the hobby/profession(no offense meant here, I don't know what the preferred term is)seem more mainstream-not as in"Kids, YOU can do this too!"-by no means do I mean that-but more "respectable", in the way that shark studies became more "respectable", after the sensationalism of "Jaws" was gotten through, it perhaps would go a long way towards the goals you seek of fair and just regulation,for your protection and that of the snakes, balanced by protection of the public.
Sorry for such a long comment, I thought perhaps a fresh view from someone on the outside looking in would perhaps "fill in the blanks". Thanks.
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RE: Getyourownserum
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by noga100 on July 17, 2003
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i work in one of the national parks in south africa and am in charge of all the herp and batrachus research in the park. in my free time i do demo's for local communities and school groups and international conferences that come and stay at the many lodges in the reserves. unfortunately people want to see the animals i work get deffensive and this is deffinately good at getting their attention. i find that while the snake is out people do not listen to much to what u are saying but concentrate on the reptile . while the reptile is out i explain to them what and why the snake is doing and then put it away. once away i get into m,ore detail about the snake because u now have the peoples attention on u and not the reptile. the stress factor of a demo on a reptile if done by a "pro" for a proffesional organisation is rather minimal. i do up to 5 demo's a week and therefore have many specimens of the species i use for demos rotating them so that they do not get stressed out. the effect of a single 10-15 minute display of a reptile every 8-10 days can not compare to the stress the animall in the wild will experience due to encounters with predators and other animals. fortunately in south africa we have a good permit system which prevents just anybody from keeping indigenous snakes (well legaly). but any body can walk into a pet shop and purchase a C.B agkistrodon or any one of the crotalus species no questions asked as long as u have the money. seems a bit bizzare.
regards
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Educational Demonstration or PR Nightmare??
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by ranger1100ky on August 26, 2003
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Someone should publicize exactly WHO those nitwits ARE!
That kind of snake handling is asinine!
I find it a shame the snakes didn't get a fair shot at their idiotic keepers that were pulling that goofy crap.
I'm a loving man... but when people act that stupidly... my attitude becomes, "If that snake gets em... I'm gonna cheer that snake on!"
The purpose of such shows, should be to calm unreasonable fears, and leave 'intelligent and sensible respect and admiration' in the wake of those unreasonable fears.
Nothing more, nothing less.
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RE: Educational Demonstration or PR Nightmare??
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by snakemn on March 16, 2004
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i know that this is the oldest subject in the herp bis but i feel like i need to say something about the animal demonstrations im an animal demonstrator for schools all around missouri and even though i own venomoids its not because im afraid of hots and i dont find it cruel! all the kids who i show these beautiful snakes learn how to respect and fear them without being in danger. if they werent venomoid then the only place they could learn about these snakes would be discovery and in my opiniun no kid watches educatioal stuff on tv and retains to much of it by bringing snakes that they would never otherwise see and showing them the dangers as well as the beauty of the snakes. i think that its safe to say that venomoid if used for the right reasons are a resource that many use to help learn an educate others.
now im tired of getting emails from hot fanatics who gripe and moan and are very un professional when i put venomoid upinions out i put out a respectful and honest opinion and i expect only respectful opinions back whether you agree or disagree. with all the bashing of the snake keeper comunity is geting already we really dont need to bash each other thanx guy
Ethan/snakemn
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