|
Venomoids: An Overview
|
Reply
|
|
by ferretworks on July 8, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
First of all: Hats off to the article. A truely un-biased look at a subject loaded with controversy.
I will also start off by saying I own a Venomoid West African Gaboon Viper. This particular snake was surgically altered by the "Ductectomy" method without a trace of scarring or mutilation. The snake was taught to eat pre-killed, and did so for a period of over 2 years before the surgery was performed. The surgery was also only performed when the snake was in a completely healthy state. In doing the surgery, a fair amount of the duct was removed as to aid in the insuring of no regrowth (In other words, No-Hack Job). I will be milking the snake in the future on a nearly-year basis to ensure that venom is not present.
I honestly believe that you can not compare hot snakes to cars. No comparison. I mean, the Ferrari with no engine? Whats that? Is the snake still not intrigueing and beautiful? You can say that the Ferrari shell is still beautiful, but when it comes down to it: My snake still acts like an ordinary gabby. Only I feed it pre-killed, a practice that should be preformed for all captive snakes in the FIRST PLACE! I also believe the Gun with no bullets is an in-accurate statement (At least for a snake that has had a Ductectomy operation). I believe a more accurate statement would be a gun with a trigger lock on it... a more or less permanent trigger lock.
With that being said, why would a person place a trigger lock on a gun? To protect themselves from the gun? No! To protect their loved ones. I know how to handle the snake. But if by some small chance, it were to fall into the hands of someone else...
With my luck, a burglar would break into my house, knock over my snakes cage, get bitten, lose all functionality on his/her right side of his/her body, get Johnny Cochran for a lawyer and sue me for over $2 million in punitive damages.
I treat my snake as if it were fully equipped and ready to kill. In fact, I have the phrase "repentinus obitus" on its cage which means "Sudden Death" in Latin. I am also very protective of my snake, not allowing anyone to handle it. When I mean handle it, I am referring to removing it from the cage to soak or clean the cage (Not playing with it at a drinking party or "trying to impress friends" as some have stated). I do have some peace of mind though that if it were to tag someone, that the good lord would be in that persons favor rather then against.
I know some of you are already saying "Well, if you can't keep it away from other people, then you shouldn't have it." I am not saying that I can not keep it away from other people. I can do that very well as a matter of fact. But there is no telling what the future may bring. I mean, look at all of the precautions people take with swimming pools, and yet how many children drown each year. Look at all the regulations OSHA has in place for the workplace, and yet deaths occur in factories everyday. In all cases, their was bad judgement and mismanagement usually. So, when OSHA comes in what do they do? They look at ways to prevent such accidents from happening by stricter regulations and rules and laws and etc.
By myself owning such a snake, I may not be considered "A True herpetologist" by many. Want to know how I feel about that? I feel just fine. If it is such an elite group, then I guess I don't want to be a part of it. But I very much admire and respect my snake.
Respectivly,
ferretworks
ferretworks@yahoo.com
|
| |
|
Venomoids: An Overview
|
Reply
|
|
by osirushamburger on September 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
i think it all sounds great!
anyone who is offended by this is R-E-T-A-R-T-E-D
i say.. if this defies yer ideas or "code of honor" or some bullshit..
then dont read it.
i found it all very informative, whether or not i use
this information is yet to be decided..
but any truthfull information, is good information
thx for yer time
|
| |
|
Venomoids: An Overview
|
Reply
|
|
Anonymous post on November 24, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I'm not going to argue about the ethical question of whether or not snakes should be rendered "venomoid", I just think people should think hard about the way the procedure is performed.
The previously described anesthetic protocol and technique may be ultimately effective in most cases, but is decidedly barbaric compared to the current standards of veterinary medicine. The snakes are anesthetized with dry cleaning solvent (which is relatively non-toxic, but can be a hazard to ALL exposed), non-sterile technique is used to perform the surgery, and no effort is made to manage pain in these animals.
The argument about whether it's right or wrong to perform the surgery falls into the same category as those about de-clawing cats, docking dogs' tails and ears, etc. You will never have agreement from all parties...but most will agree that IF surgery is performed, appropriate techniques should be used and pain should be managed.
There are veterinarians who do perform this procedure. The cost may be more, but you get what you pay for. And remember, it is illegal for a person without a veterinary license to perform surgery on an animal that they do not own.
I don't mean these comments to be inflammatory. Everyone has to make their own choices according to individual sensibilities. I just encourage people to make educated decisions.
|
| |
|
RE: Venomoids: An Overview
|
Reply
|
|
by Gnochman on March 11, 2003
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
An additional thought re: venomoids. How is it not relatively cruel to keep one or several of your herps in a Rubbermaid container that is only 3-6 inches tall stacked in a rack for the rest of its breeding life? One may say that the snake is not cognizant of their confinement, yet we don't know for sure. One might also assume that the venomoid snake is not cognizant (at least after it has recovered fully from the surgery) that it is now a venomoid. So if there are indeed no significant deleterious effects of removing the glands (i.e. affecting the quality of life or life span), then how is it any less cruel to confine them in small dwellings for the purpose of breeding convenience?
Stop the Madness : )
JOn
|
| |
|
Venomoids: An Overview
|
Reply
|
|
by jay72 on April 15, 2003
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
I think that the whole venomoid practice is a disgrace to our hobby. It will bring the wrong kind of people into the hobby. To put these snakes through this procedure is an atrocity. If these people who choose to keep venemoids really cared about the snakes and not their own image they would be against this stressful and inhumane procedure. The fact is that there are alot of snakes that dont even survive the procedure and there is no way of knowing how much pain the snake is going through after the procedure. If people are really interested in venomous snakes, they should dedicate the time and effort in understanding husbandry and handling of these fascinating animals.
|
| |
|
RE: Venomoids: An Overview
|
Reply
|
|
by CFoley on June 1, 2003
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I personally am against Venomoids. Im just about keeping things natural, I also like non venomous. Id rather purchase a non venomous animal than pay money to have one "mutilated." I guess each side has its rightful argument, but this is just my opinion of it.
As far as everyone taking about how keeping venomoids makes you not "herpetologist"...Im going to steal a quote from someone, its from Seamus Haley, who i believe stole it from Ken Foose. "A young boy with a frog in a jar is a herpetologist"
The word herpetologist meaning: one who studies reptiles.
|
| |
|
RE: Venomoids: An Overview
|
Reply
|
|
by Msurinamensis on June 16, 2003
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Oddly enough I ran across this article while googling Ken's name in a search for some of his slightly older writings about gender determination in varanids and was just a bit suprised to see my name come up...
I did in fact steal the quote from Ken Foose, it's something he said to me once when I was being... less than respectful... to someone online and utilizing their lack of an educational background (formal or informal) to belittle them. The term "herpetologist" is literally "One who studies herpetology" but the phrasing really made me take a few steps back, disentangle myself from the argument I was involved in and refresh my views about the value any given individual might bring to the hobby/science/industry regardless of their educational background... heck, some of the greatest contributions and best reccognized names are those who never attended college or even, in some instances, graduated high school.
I needed to be verbally kicked in the head by someone who knew better before I saw it myself... but being a "herpetologist" has nothing to do with education or background or what breeding accomplishments someone has under their belt, it's a term that can be applied to anyone who observes a herp and forms a conclusion, the conclusion doesn't even have to be correct.
Since I do have strong feelings about the venomoid issue though, and I did just register to post on a website I have perused for years, I may as well voice it.
As a personal matter, I am against the production of or encouragement of the production of, venomoid animals.
There hasn't been signifigant enough evidence compiled to prove that the procedure is reliable for the intended goal of cessation of venom production.
There hasn't been signifigant enough evidence compiled to demonstrate that the procedue falls within acceptable risks to the animal during the surgery itself and in the recupperation period afterwards.
There hasn't been signifigant data collection about the importance of venom as a digestive aid and, contrary to the presentation in the above article (which was otherwise very well thought out and well written) the evidence that has been collected suggests very stongly that the venom is quite important... the more toxic the species, the more important it becomes... Studies can be skewed in either direction based on the toxicity of the species used for the study itself, a cottonmouth has not evolved the same level of potency or venom yeild as an EDB, the digestive system and metabolic processes have not evolved to utilize the more efficient digestion... The logical conclusion to this is that the more potent the venom for any given species, the more reliant they are on the venom as a digestive aid and the greater the potential health impact if their abilities in those regards are removed.
The biggest issue I have with the procedure outside of the potential health effects on the snake and my own tendency to shy away from anything that deviates from the natural "purity to the greatest extent possible" of the animals i personally choose to keep is the complacency that is all too often developed with venomoid animals.
Ignoring for a moment the discussions about the macho factors involved with keeping the species to begin with, I ask anyone reading this if they really treat every snake they encounter in an identical manner... I know I personally am far more complacent when handling a small non-venomous colubrid than when handling even a six or eight foot boid and am far more complacent when handling a boid then when handling any hot... Can people honestly say that they would NEVER become careless with these venomoid animals, even knowing that there is a potential, however slight, for venom production even after the surgery?
There are a couple more quotes by Ken that I repeat often and loudly because they ring true with what I personally believe... "There are two kinds of hot keepers, those who have been bitten and those who will be." a phrase repeated so often that the originator is unknown, but I first heard it from Mr. Foose. I keep a few hots myself, nothing too impressive and nothing amazing or unusual but I keep them with the understanding that they have abilities that I need to be prepared for and respect. This understanding is what makes me a responsible keeper, I take every precaution, never handle when not needed for maintenence, never freehandle and keep the animals in locked enclosures that can be divided from the outside. I keep emergency numbers on speed dial and maintain a cell phone exclusively for the purpose of calling those numbers should the need arise. If I didn't have the respect I do for the potential these animals have, I might not take such precautions and might end up paying an unpleasant price.
What's worse... any case of envenomation usually makes at least the local news if reported, this would likely be doubly true for a case where the animal was believed to be venomoid, the last thing our hobby needs is that foot in the door public opinion to provide a toe-hold for rabid anti-human animal rights groups by allowing situations like that to occur.
The second quote I wanted to mention that, once again, I personally first heard from Ken (I do have a habit of pestering him whenever possible, he's a man I have an overwhelming respect for, even after having learned that he was a KC Chief's fan) is "The most dangerous snake in the world is the one in front of you right now." This just goes a bit further to illustrate the need to have a respect for the individual capabilities of any animal you might be handling, a respect that I have seen the owners of venomoids lose all too often as they assume the animals in their care have lost these abilities.
So... general points being 1)Anyone is a herpetologist if they even so much as look at a herp, 2)The health effects of the surgery used to produce venomoids, both immediate and long term are not sufficiently evidenced to be safe to make me personally comfortable with it for either the animal or the keeper and 3)I quote Ken Foose way too often.
Thanks for the consideration anyone may have given to the thoughts above, I do appreciate anyone taking the time to wade through my long winded posts even if only to disagree in the end.
-Seamus Haley
inspectorparrot@earthlink.net
msurinamensis@aol.com
|
| |
|
RE: Venomoids: An Overview
|
Reply
|
|
by copperman67 on October 14, 2003
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
I agree with you Seamus, there hasn't been enough concrete data collected on the health effects of this procedure on the animal nor has there been any concrete evidence on the procedure not reversing, of course my opinion on the subject is basically an echo of some already posted...if you want to keep hots then leave them as they are the way nature made them, if you are scared or don't want to assume the responsibilites (i.e. getting envenomated) then keep non-poisonous snakes.
|
| |
|
RE: Venomoids: An Overview
|
Reply
|
|
by KingCobraFan on December 13, 2003
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
My "Ferrari with no engine in it" analogy had nothing to do with machismo or being cool. It was simply my way of describing how I feel about venomoids. So far, I own no venomous snakes; my handling is done on my mentor's animals. When I do buy my first one, I assure you it won't be to impress anyone how cool I am, but simply because it's fascinating to own such a reptile in its natural form. When there are so many non-venomous snakes out there with spectacular coloration, why bother with venomoids? Simply go with non-vens from the get-go if you're not comfortable with venomous. As far as I'm concerned, hot snakes should be left in, and handled in, their natural state, without cutting their heads open to fit into someone's comfort zone.
Sincerely,
Bill Huseth
|
| |
|
RE: Venomoids: An Overview
|
Reply
|
|
by Blake on December 17, 2003
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I would like to say that was a great article and verry informative. I have a friend who has a venomoid banded egypatian cobra and its doing just fine. There is how ever the saying "Why fix something thats not broken". Personaly I think they are great for starters and are good for thos epeople who just like they way venomous snake looks. you can't get non-venomous snake in the colors and patterns of some species of rattlesnakes so you can always get a venomoid.
One way to tell if you really have a venomoid it to toss in a live rat and let the snake bite it a few times. If the rat lives then it probably is a venomoid. you will also know for sure if the snake was hungry.
I am for both venomous and venomoids.
Blake
|
| |
|
Email Subscription
You are not subscribed to this topic.
Subscribe!
My Subscriptions
Subscriptions Help
Check our help page for help using
, or send questions, comments, or suggestions to the
Manager.
|
