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To Jim Harrison
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by timberrattlesnake89 on October 11, 2004
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Ok,
Look at website team. There is a one guy who has a copperhead that is on a hook. The hook is raised up higher than mid body. Also the copperhead is on a mini hook not even a big hook. It could fall back on him and tag him. Just like you where telling me to not do. Why can't you just not get into arguments over everything. I do not see anyone bothering him. You have been bit more than several times. I saw you on animal planet. You grab a mamba with out even pinning its neck down. So what the hell are you lecturing me for. Don't you have a finger missing? I don't and plan to keep them. So please don't freaking lecture me. I never pin snakes head down. I do not think I am an expert. What didn't you get I was about to bag the canebreak. I personallly don't liked being attacked.
Phillip
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RE: To Jim Harrison
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by Phobos on October 11, 2004
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Phillip...Chill for a minute.
You caught the same hormonal disease that another youngster on this site had a month or so back. Put the Testerone down..back..up and no one will get hurt. (It's a joke Phillip...lol)
I am pleased that your verbage in this debate is clean and proper. I commend you for that. Phillip, you're a bit over the top on some of the details on this issue.
1) We all like you; you're knowlegeable and have good common sense, a surprising amount for your age. WE would like for you to keep all your digits too.
2) None of the statements were a "put down" in any sense of the word. Jim and the others were being good mentors pointing out areas you might think about improving, so to decrease the risk of being bitten.
3) We were all where you are now. We understand it's a tuff road; this sort of "peer" review will be with you thought out your life. Just a fact of life. Get used to it and accept it not as an attack but a time to pause for self-inspection.
4) This website is something many of the younger herpers take for granted. Do you realize when Jim, Doug, and I were at your age we had only books. No one to discuss (with) all of these issues on the "Expert" forum. Just think about the real "experts" that take time out to visit this forum and be part of a community that did not exsist when I was 17. I can't express HOW fortunate you are to be able to discuss subjects with Jim, Doug, Greg, BGF and others.
Phillip, I consider you a valuable contributor to this forum. Take the time to sit and re-read this entire thread, plus this offshoot. There is much information to be considered. Just leave the emotion out of the equation and you'll learn the true meaning of what Jim was trying to say.
Best,
Al
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RE: To Jim Harrison
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Anonymous post on October 12, 2004
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yo phil what you gotta remember is :
OLDER PEOPLE ALWAYS THINK THEY KNOW MORE AND ITS NOT ALWAYS TRUE.
somtimes the older ones are wrong and its the young ones that are right , i don t come on this site often but i like reptiles aswell , most of the post on this site are things that they have copied of the internet its not there own knowledge. it does nt matter how much you know , ya always gonna be looked down on cuz it happens to all young people, the older people on this site have been wrong quite alot. so don t you worry about it.
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RE: To Jim Harrison
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by timberrattlesnake89 on October 12, 2004
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I do not have homonial problems at all and my tesotorin is fine, Al. I just do not like hypocrits. There is a lot on this site. I am very careful when working venomous snakes. MOre than some people on this site. I do like talking and discussing with most of you. I just don't like people at me for things that everyone here is doing. I go and catch them. Most people on this site and I know personally don't go out herping. That is all I do. I have a serious passion for snakes and all wildlife. That is why I want to work in zoos and teach. Well I have to go because the bell rung and I need to get to class.
Phillip
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RE: To Jim Harrison
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by Phobos on October 12, 2004
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Yo...Mr. Anonymous...
No question about it..."to err is human" but I suppose you're always right...
BTW...Cowards afraid to stand up and be counted seem to post anonymous all the time. What's wrong..can't take the heat? Stay out of the kitchen!
Al
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RE: To Jim Harrison
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Anonymous post on October 12, 2004
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LOL ;)
anonymous posters are quite comman on this website that you seem to be very fond of , i m not the only one you should stay out the kitchin then am i ?. i m ok i don t come on here often i m posting anonymous because like phil said theres alot of critics on here , who seem to attack the young ones , jumpy older people who don t like there thunder stolen by 16 year olds or whatever , its just the young ones who get attacked on here .
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RE: To Jim Harrison
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by JRHarrison on October 12, 2004
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Since you brought up my name in the title of this thread I will reply again.
I am not condoning anyone else's handling technique on this or any other site. In fact, we frequently discuss how poor some of the techniques we see here and at other sires are. However, since you are young and interested in getting into herpetology professionally, I thought it would be worth my time to try and help you. I was wrong.
If you do not change your attitude there is no AZA zoo that would be interested in hiring you. I know because many of our interns have gone on to work in zoos and because I have trained many zoo professionals how to work with venomous. I am not bragging- that is the simple truth. It doesn't mean I know everything.
The only time I put my hands on a snake is to extract venom or perhaps perform a medical procedure. I do not do it to show off. (The AP show you mentioned- yes I did extract from green mambas on film- that was for a project for the Mayo Clinic- the producer was dissapointed I wouldn't extract from a rattlesnake. I don't do requests for TV or other photography, I only work with what's necessary.)
I have been bitten- I am not proud of it and it is not a badge of honor. I have been extracting from snakes for about 30 years, and have probably averaged over 500 extractions per week. I have been envenomated only twice while extracting. The other bites were careless mistakes I made and would like to make sure others don't make them. (By the way the missing finger is from a weight lifting accident.)
I find it interesting that even though I made every effort to be polite and non-threatening to you when I made the original suggestions you still took it as a personal attack. As Al mentioned, throughout life you will have people making suggestions and constructive criticism to you. One mark of maturity is being able to take it without feeling personally attacked and getting defensive.
A last thought: yes I realize you were bagging the snake. I know it is illegal in Georgia parks to do so, as I know personally a couple of f&w agents there. Maybe the people around your park don't care, but if anyone sees you doing it and complains, then they will have to follow up on it. Also, you didn't understand what I said about learning from the wild. I have spent much of my life in the field; hunted every state in the Union and several foreign countries. I always have learned more about the animals behavior by watching than touching it. Keep in mind that even if the animal seems calm you are still increasing its stress levels and perhaps harming it. I have personally observed Harry Greene refusing to touch a blacktail that looked thin in the wild in order to avoid potentially harming it by causing too much stress, even though it could have been a part of his study. If a scientist of that caliber does something, you know it is in the animal's best interest.
Just remember to not learn your science from TV. Touching something just to touch it is for personal gratification not for the animal's well being.
Jim Harrison
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RE: To Jim Harrison
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by JRHarrison on October 12, 2004
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Sorry I forgot. You can contact me direct at kyreptil@pop.mis.net or call 606-663-9160 between 10:00am and 8:00pm. Like I posted before I would rather talk to a person directly then on the net.
If you have further questions or anyone else does feel free to contact us.
Jim Harrison
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RE: To Jim Harrison
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by Phobos on October 12, 2004
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Yo Anonymous:
First of all Phillip was not ,attacked,savaged or anything of that nature. I've personally been very supportive of the young herpers on this site. I only get "jumpy" if they are doing something risky to themselves or others. We speak from the standpoint of experience which is different from knowllage. Anyone can become knowledgeable simply by reading books and such. Of course you need another ingredient: "discipline" to study the material you need to absorb to become knowledgeable on a topic. You become experienced over time by actually doing what your knowledgeable about under the watchful eye of an instructor. It can also be called "wisdom" which young people are generally lacking.
If anyone attacks someone else they post anonyomous, if anyone acts in a childish manner they post anonyomous, get my point. Seldom do they have the guts to embark on these behaiviours and put their name to them.
If you can't defend your statements by at least owning up to them, then you're a "detractor" and should not have the privilage of a voice here in my opinion. If you want to post something ridiculus or childish and put your (real name) to it fine, then you can speak.
I have only seen one or two cases that "anonyomous" was used as it was intended. Somebody was "pinched" with snake gear in a State Park and was embarrased to publicly admit it. He wanted to tell others that not to bring gear/bags to that location.
This website is for all people who want to learn and not play the "detractor" and waste valuable time.
Al
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RE: To Jim Harrison
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by Buzztail1 on October 12, 2004
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Phillip,
You seem pretty upset about this.
If you read the profile of "the guy with the raised copperhead" you will see that he has only been into venomous snakes for about 5 years. We all start out somewhere and none of us know everything.
You seem to be saying that you don't want to learn from anyone who has learned "the hard way". I would caution you against discounting the advice of people who have been bitten. They are exactly the people who know where the limits were when their "accident" happened. We all can learn from them. I promise that the first people to keep Gaboon Vipers did not know that they could strike up over their backs without any warning. Probably more than a few of them got bitten learning that lesson. So instead of listening to them, we should say "What could you possibly know? You got bit!"? I don't think so. That is how we share and learn.
I have been keeping venomous snakes for almost 29 years and I am still learning from different people everyday. By all means check the background of people that you take advice from but that does not mean that you should publicly demean them if you disagree with their advice.
Rumor has it that Steve Irwin has never been bitten by any venomous snake. Does that mean that we should all be advising young people that they should handle snakes the way he does? Of course not!
Just remember this: It is always easier to start out "too careful" and survive than not careful enough and not survive.
Be safe,
Karl H. Betz
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