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A question for Dr. Tim Friede
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by septithol on May 6, 2005
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Dear Dr. Friede: I have been reading on the internet about some of your work with poison snakes, I think it's great that you are following in the footsteps of Bill Haast, who is a very interesting person. I am curious if you have ever read about the work of the Russian geneticist Dmitri Balyaev, who by selectively breeding silver foxes who reacted in a positive manner to human contact, was able, within 6 generations, to create a variant of the silver fox which was as domesticated and friendly as a dog. Do you think that this work could be applied to poison snakes? Although it is unlikely that a snake would ever be 'friendly' in any meanful way, it seems to me that it should be possible to selectively breed less aggressive individuals (ei, don't attempt to bite over little provocation) of various species of venomous snakes in order to get a more docile type of snake for use in a serpentarium. Let me know your opinions on this idea as soon as you have a chance.
Thanks - Ann
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RE: A question for Dr. Tim Friede
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Anonymous post on May 6, 2005
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I would not hold my breath on this one. These animals are so prehistoric and have not evolved much from there ancestors. Snakes have 4 instincts. Eat, reproduce, stay warm, and drink. Thats it.
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RE: A question for Dr. Tim Friede
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by septithol on May 6, 2005
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Anonymous wrote: <I would not hold my breath on this one. These animals are so prehistoric and have not evolved much from there ancestors. Snakes have 4 instincts. Eat, reproduce, stay warm, and drink. Thats it.>
Dear Anonymous: First of all, unless you are actually Dr. Tim Friede and posting without logging in, my question was not even addressed to you. Secondly, your premises and contentions are mistaken. Snakes are in fact, the most recently evolved reptiles on the planet and have evolved a great deal from their ancestors. Case in point, hollow teeth, folding teeth, and the various numerous compounds of venom. Additional evidence of this evolution is found in the existence of 'color morphs' of certain snakes, such as albinos or luecistic individuals. These color morphs are descended from particular individuals who genetically varied from the norm. If a snake can have different genes for color it can certainly have different genes for aggressiveness. My experience with snakes has been that they do in fact vary in their individual behavior. Some snakes are more aggressive than others. Both their behavior and their 'instincts' (Eat, reproduce, stay warm, and drink) vary from individual to individual. Snakes are not homogenous clones. It is because they are not homogenous that I believe it should be possible to use artificial selection to breed them to display greater or lesser amounts of certain behavior, as was done with Balyaev's foxes.
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RE: A question for Dr. Tim Friede
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by LarryDFishel on May 6, 2005
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I'm not Dr. Friede either, but since he hasn't posted here in a year and a half, I would be surprised if he answers.
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RE: A question for Dr. Tim Friede
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by Nightflight99 on May 7, 2005
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Not Tim Friede here either, but maybe I can offer some insights into the topic that you are addressing.
Phenotypic traits, such as coloration, scalation, etc. are of course controlled by their corresponding genotype. This would also include behavioral traits, which - however - are also subject to adaptation. Color mutations are usually strongly selected against, and are therefore rarely passed on to the gene pool. Natural selection generally removes such obviously abberant specimens before they are able to reach sexual maturity. In captivity, (artificial) selection is generally rather weak and typically results in animals with reduced fitness and increased homozygosity, because juvenile mortality is significantly lower and inbreeding depression is likely to occur.
That being said, it is certainly possible to selectively breed specimens for a specific desired trait - as has been done for many years (e.g. coloration, size, etc). It should therefore be possible to selectively breed for disposition, although this may prove to be difficult for a number of reasons. First, disposition is adaptive, as is evident by defensive wild-caught specimens that are gradually conditioned for a seemingly mild disposition over time. This would also make it rather difficult to determine the "true" disposition of a given specimen, as such may be masked by mere conditioning. In addition, one might speculate that it may take a significant amount of generations to produce a notable change, because defensive behavior is an important trait that has been selected for for a very long time.
Hope this helps.
~TE
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RE: A question for Dr. Tim Friede
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by septithol on May 7, 2005
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Dear Nightflight: Thank you for a very sensible answer. In response to your thought that the innate defensive behaviors of snakes might prove difficult to change through selective breeding because they have been around for a long time, I think this would be true of ANY trait which people have selectively bred snakes or other animals for. This would be true of the foxes which were bred by Dmitri Balyaev, foxes have been feral creatures for countless generations, just as snakes have, but it took only 6 generations for Balyaev to produce SOME foxes which were as tamable as dogs, and after 40 years of continual fox breeding, over 90 percent of the foxes in this experiment are now of the 'super-tamable' type. I see no inherent reason why it should be harder to alter the behavior of snakes (within the limitions of it's smaller brain) by selective breeding than it should be to alter the behavior of foxes by that method.
Regarding the difficulty in judging the inherently genetic behavior of a snake vs that resulting from conditioning, I do not see this as a problem either. Assuming a person, John Q. Herper wishes to breed snakes for tameness, the proper way to go about it is the same way Balyaev did: start with newly hatched snakes, treat them all identically (or as much so as possible), and compare their behavior at various intervals. Since they were all raised together and treated the same, those which are least aggressive compared to the others most likely have at least some genetic component to their behavior. Those individuals should be bred to eachother to provide the next generation of snakes in the experiment.
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RE: A question for Dr. Tim Friede
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by Cro on May 7, 2005
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Ann: You said "it seems to me that it should be possible to selectively breed less aggressive individuals (ei, don't attempt to bite over little provocation) of various species of venomous snakes in order to get a more docile type of snake for use in a serpentarium".
As others have said, this would probably be possible given enough time.
You would be making it more dangerous for people who work in serpentariums, as they would loose respect for the danger the snakes present, and become complacent.
Why use a hook, when you can just reach in and remove a "docile" rattlesnake from a cage? It might just work a a few hundred times, but eventually the snake will bite someone. Remember, the snakes still have their full venom, even if they are "docile".
I bet the foxes you mentioned that are as "tame" as dogs still bite people, just as "tame" dogs do.
More docile snakes will result in more snake bites as the snakes make their way from serpentariums to hobbists. And what about the kids who grow up seeing docile snakes at a zoo being free handled, then go out in their back yard and find a non-docile one?
I just do not see any point in breeding venomous snakes bo be docile, even if it could be done.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: A question for Dr. Tim Friede
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Anonymous post on May 7, 2005
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I know of a very selective breeding group of overly defensive (aggressive) Naja kaouthia. And yes this is a genetic selective breeding for this purpose. So theoretically, yes, this could be done to a certain extent. Though, as with all animals you can not breed out instinctual behaviors and replace them with learned behaviors.
With dogs, we humans become part of the 'pack'. Over the course of many generations of this, they lose prejudice towards other species. Adding tolerance. However, every dog, under the right circumstances will resort to instincts in order to defend, breed, eat and drink.
Snakes are not social, therefore would not 'learn' to not defend themselves when nescessary from other species. Snakes, as predators, do have the ability to learn. This is what makes a predator successful. In captivity, when treated gently and with respect, their defensive behaviors are reduced. Yet, instinct will always play a significant role in their defensive behaviors. Snakes may be higher forms of reptiles, they are still reptiles with a limited intelligence as we relate to that.
Just so you know, Mr. Tim Friede is no doctor, he is a brick layer. With very little experience or knowledge with snakes. Anyone is able to put anything they want on the internet, even if it does not have any grain of reality to it.
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RE: A question for Dr. Tim Friede
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by LarryDFishel on May 7, 2005
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While I continue to not be Dr. Friede, I think you're missing an important point. Foxes, like all canid species that I'm aware of, have eveolved very complex social behavior over millions of years, including both dominant and submissive behaviors. What was done with the foxes (and domestic dogs) was to select for more of the (already existing) submissive behaviors and less of the dominant behaviors. You can't create new complex social behaviors in 6 generations (probably not in 100) new behaviors will only come about through random mutation. Most snakes are almost completely asocial, therefore the same kind of selection is not really possible. You could probably breed out the fear of predators, which would reduce the chances of defensive bites, but if you breed out feeding strikes, you might end up with snakes that have to be force fed...
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RE: A question for Dr. Tim Friede
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by KingCobraFan on May 7, 2005
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Ann, while there are a few Tim Friedes out there, the one you referred to is not a doctor, nor, to the best of my knowledge, has he ever represented himself as one.
Bill Huseth
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