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venom differences
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Anonymous post on June 7, 2005
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I am fully aware of the canebrakes venom being alot more toxic than a copperheads,but I was wondering why it is , that when I feed a live mouse to one of my copperheads, death is very quick.Sometime in just seconds, almost always in less than a minute. But when I feed one of my canebrakes, the mouse will live for at least a couple of minutes, sometimes up to twenty.And this is pretty consistant so I don't think the copperhead just got a lucky heart shot.Is this an example of venom being prey specific?
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RE: venom differences
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by Demonio76 on June 7, 2005
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To the best of my knowledge venom toxicity can vary greatly, even between individuals of the same species or even the same population. Further, the responses to venom can vary greatly as well among different individuals of prey. Perhaps the A. c. is injecting more venom than the C. h. and that is why you see the difference. I suspect that if you quantified the differences you would see more variation and less consistancy than currently observed. Also, differences in the weights of the mice could delay or accelerate the action of the venom
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RE: venom differences
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by Cro on June 7, 2005
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When a copperhead is young, they eat a lot more animals than mice, including lizards, insects, amphibians, etc. If copperheads had venom that was prey specific to mice, then we have to ask what is happning when they are eating other animals as young snakes.
Canebrake Rattlesnakes in the wild do eat some different animals than copperheads, including cotton rats, quail, and rabbits. There is some possibility that the venom difference helps the canebrake obtain some of these larger food items.
However, just because canebrake venom is more toxic than a copperheads venom, does not mean that it will kill quicker. It could mean that it will cause much more overall damage, and is more likely to be fatal a larger percentage of the time.
When researchers establish the LD50 of a venom, which measures the amount of a diluted venom that will kill 50% of the mice tested, they are not measuring how quickly a venom kills, but how fatal it eventually is. Some slower acting venoms could be eventually very fatal, but take some time doing it. JohnZ
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RE: venom differences
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by Dadee on June 8, 2005
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What John is saying is correct, however, what hasn't been addressed in this thread yet is not the LD50 table, but more over the percentages of dry bites, or even the amount injected. Being that these 2 highly different snakes have variances in their venom is one thing, but also the control over dosage injected. If you have 2 or more of the same species, try your test again. You'll notice there are diffences in 2 injections from the copperheads (hopefully you have more than one), likewise the same will more than likely apply to the canbrakes.
Just wanted to interject this point.
Cheers,
Matt
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RE: venom differences
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by earthguy on June 8, 2005
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I'm going to have to agree with Damian here. You haven't said which snake is larger or how often you feed them. If the A.c. is larger, or it eats more often, then its individual venom mayy be more potent. The amout of venom injected by a bite has a great deal to do with the individuals relative health, how recently it has eaten (those proteins in the venom have to come from somewhere) and individual size (to some extent). Maybe your copperhead is just a badass (pardon my French) or you rattler is a pansy ;).
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RE: venom differences
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by agkistrodude on June 8, 2005
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The southern copperheads I have are 28-38 inches long,(2.2)The canebrakes are 40 and 31 inches (1.1)I feed them every 10 days.For the past year or so, frozen/thawed,before that,always live.This is an observation I've noticed over years, not just recently.I always thought that either the canebrake had better control over the amount of venom injected or it was slower acting like John said. But then recently I read somewhere about some venom being prey specific and wondered if maybe thats whats going on.Sorry about starting the thread anonymous,not really sure how that happened.Thanks for all the interesting answers, Marty
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RE: venom differences
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by Dadee on June 8, 2005
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Marty, you might be refering to what Dr. Sean Bush mentioned in his Seminar at Loma Linda University last year. I think they were talking about the possible evolution of the Southern Pac and the Mojave.
Just thought I'd put that in there.
MJ
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RE: venom differences
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by agkistrodude on June 11, 2005
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No, it wasn't Dr. Bush. I've looked for it again and can't find it.But if I remember correctly, one of the "venom specific" snakes\prey animals that was mentioned was the EDB and rabbits.According to him,while the EDB can and does kill pretty much any prey it wants, the rabbit is its natural "preferred" choice.Therefore it would only take a fraction of the venom that it would need on a squirrel or rat to kill the rabbit- venom specific to rabbits.Like I said,I don't know if this is true or not,just wondering that if it is true, was that what is going on with my copperheads being able to kill a mouse faster than my canebrakes.The next feeding day I'll get a couple live mice and actually time it.Lately I've only been feeding F/T to everything. Marty
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