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Thanks Jim Harrison....
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Anonymous post on June 12, 2005
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would personally like to thank Jimmy for putting such a nice kind word in for priviate hot herpers. Very well written article, but only telling half the truth and most is such bullshit. Has politics gone to your head man? How can you say permits for your state would be cost prohibitive. Look at FL...you know it would bring in revenue. Here is a copy of their letter.
Kentucky Reptile Zoo’s position is that venomous reptiles and crocodilians can pose a danger to the general public, emergency responders, and fish and wildlife agents when kept as pets. Kentucky Reptile Zoo believes that these animals can be kept responsibly, however this is not often the case. Responsible ownership of dangerous reptiles includes keeping proper antisera for venomous species, sturdy and secure caging, appropriate signage indicating venomous animals are present, and proper insurance to cover any accidents. We realize that to establish and enforce a permit system that would regulate ownership of these animals and create proper standards for their maintenance would be cost prohibitive to the state. In the absence of such a restrictive permit system, Kentucky Reptile Zoo supports a ban on the keeping of venomous reptiles. We also support the exemption policy as currently worded.
Two recent snakebite deaths in Ohio underscore the need for this type of legislation. Both of these cases involved private individuals who kept exotic snakes as pets. One main argument made by private owners is that they are the only ones who are put at risk by these animals, and that they have the right to take that risk if they so choose. It is our position that a private bite can and does affect many more people than just the individual owner. Please allow me to present an example scenario of snakebite to a private keeper. Initially, the keeper is bitten by an exotic snake for which he has no antivenom. The keeper is then at risk of death or permanent disfigurement due to the bite. Most snakebites are surviviable if proper antivenom can be located, however antivenom does not affect necrosis or death of tissue that can be caused by the venom. Therefore even if the victim survives there may be permanent loss of use of a limb, which could result in the person not being able to work. If the victim retains consciousness and rational thought, the snake may be replaced in its cage after the bite. However, if the person loses consciousness or simply panics, the snake may be loose in the house. Emergency personnel will then be at risk themselves when responding to the scene. It goes without saying that most paramedics and other first responders are generally not trained to handle a venomous snake safely. Additionally, the unnecessary use of such personnel for this reason precludes their being able to respond to any other potential needs during that time period.
Once the victim arrives at the hospital, the treating doctors must generally attempt to locate the proper antivenom for the snake species that caused the bite. Generally, many private owners do not know what antivenom must be used, and we have even encountered cases where the person did not even know what species of snake they were bitten by. Usually the doctor calls the nearest zoos in an effort to locate antivenom. Zoo personnel then either supply the antivenom if they have it (and they only keep antivenom for the snakes they have, not all venomous snake species,) or call around to other zoos who will then supply the antivenom to the hospital. This process can take hours from the initial bite to the antivenom actually arriving at the hospital. Delay of treatment can result in reduced efficacy of the antivenom and more serious effects of the venom.
Many private keepers tend to forget that zoos do not base their antivenom supply on how many private keepers have venomous snakes. Once a zoo supplies the antivenom to a private individual, their stock is seriously depleted or gone. This means that the zoos are then faced with a choice of either allowing their keepers to work the snakes with no antivenom, or simply neglecting the snakes until more antivenom can be acquired. Both of these choices violate the code of ethics that most zoos follow, as they strive for both top quality care of the animals in their collection and the utmost in safety for the keepers who work for them. This problem is compounded by the fact that most foreign antivenoms take at least six months to replace, as importation requires federal (USDA and FDA) permits, correspondence with overseas manufacturers, and shipping time.
Due to patient confidentiality concerns, we are not able to provide information on exotic bites that have occurred in the area other than what has appeared in the media. We would be happy to help locate such articles if you would like. Tennessee and Indiana currently have restrictive laws governing the ownership of dangerous animals. In light of the recent deaths in Ohio it seems plausible the state may pass laws as well. Overall 29 states currently have some type of dangerous animal legislation. It is our concern that if Kentucky does not follow suit then our state may become a dumping ground for these animals.
If you have any other questions please don’t hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Jim Harrison, Director Kristen Wiley, Curator
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by Phobos on June 13, 2005
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Dear Anonymous:
It really makes my blood boil when people don't have the GUTS to sign their name to their opinon/post, mostly when they are "taking someone to task" for their position regarding a topic. At least you posted the letter for all to see and read.
I do not completely support their position when it comes to a ban, I ABSOLUTELY agree with all of the other supporting facts they laid out in their position letter:
It's a fact that 90% of those people out there should not be keeping some or all the snakes they are keeping. I would love to keep some species of Mamba's and others but I realize they are indeed too hot to handle in my small snake room, there for I don't. I can live with putting myself at risk but I REFUSE putting others in a potientally dangerious situation just so I can enjoy these species in the comfort of my home.
Not all the snakes are housed in "professional grade" cages.
Very few people have "Snakebite protocols" ready with recognized "experts" to contact in an emergency. This is a damn good start on protecting yourself but how many out there have them in place?
VERY VERY few have the required Antivenom on hand incase of envenomation. Furthermore, The response Matt & I have regarding the Antivenom Bank is "Piss Poor" compared to the number of hot keepers in this region. Once again demonstrating the lack of responsability of Venomous Snake keepers in the region.
I simply don't have the time at the moment to go down the list of items supporting Jim & Kristen position but they're right on target except for the support of a ban. Don't blame Jim & Kristen for what we as a community have put in motion.
Al Coritz
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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Anonymous post on June 13, 2005
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I actually agree with Jim. While I think that everyone has his or her right to own what ever animal they want, if something happened and the animal got out, it could affect more people than the owner. Example, my neighbor should be able to keep a lion if he wants to, but I would fear for mine and my families safety if anything happened and it killed one of us. I have in the past kept certain very hot exotics with no antivenom or protocol or anything. I didnt even know what antivenom to use in case I did get bitten. Thats sad. I no longer keep venomous. I was well aware of the things that could happen, but I just didnt get what was needed in case of an emergency. I didnt have them in very secure cages either and they could have possibly gotten out and injured or most likely killed my family or neighbors. Also the part about Kentucky becoming a dumping ground,think about it. THat is the truth. "Hey,my state is banned and I dont live too far from Kentucky,lets just go there." I think that every state should have a permit system like Floridas. I think that it should be mandatory to have antivenom,secure cages etc. and if you violate the rules you will be punished. Thats only fair for me and for you. Jim knows what he is doing. I am sure he didnt just wake up and say "Hey, Im going to piss some people off."
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by elapidking81 on June 13, 2005
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I agree with the permit system to a extent, but I think that there are many keepers that potentialy could and probably will end the keeping of venomous snakes nation wide. Sad but its always some idiot that ruens it for everyone.
shane kissinger
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by Phobos on June 13, 2005
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Keep in mind the reasons to have a strong A/V Bank:
1) It eliminates one of the problems: BAD PR from the Zoo's when they have to give up serum to save a private keepers ass. Don't get me wrong, I agree with the Zoo's position on this as well as KRZ. It takes a long time to replace and Zoo's have tight budgets for purchasing A/V. Remember that these are not "Fuzzy cute Pandas" on which they spend millions, they're Reptiles, Venomous ones. That most people would like to see extinct. Reptile houses are most likely at the bottom of the Zoo's food chain when it comes to funding.
2) As a large group we may be able to get Libility insurance for keepers who are members at reasonable prices. Eliminating another one of KRZ's valid points as a objection. Of course your cages and such would have to be up snuff.
3) We could help fund Reptile houses in AZA Zoo's across the country. Makes it a bit more unlikely they word give BAD PR, if the A/V Bank was not only preventing a drain on their serum supply but acting as a "back up" supply for AZA Zoo's if needed.
See..there is a way to do this right, we just may be too late. We just have to work together and support ways to satisfy law makers and professionals like KRZ that we are being responsable, then maybe some states will survive this chain reaction.
Al Coritz
www.neavb.org
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by TCH_Zoological on June 13, 2005
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Permits are a must in my opinion and a/v banks are a great idea. The same as a driver's licenses and seat belts.
But out right bans are wrong in every case.
I have read some other posts regarding this topic and I must say, I hate and I do mean hate people saying that venomous keeping is a privilage. Bull....bull..bull...such a statement is a perfect illustration of the typical brainwashed American. Rights, privilages, allowances etc, ha ha ha, they are all relative. Any philosopher will say that relativism is a weak platform to stand on if you can even stand at all. Rights are what we socially agree on and then enforce upon each other. Ridiculous!! Absird!! Stupid!! Of couse the enlightened are not sitting in power and we must conform for survival. It's a tragedy.
If there wasn't a goverenment to say "we are giving you a privilage" then nobody would know the difference. NOBODY.
Did Native Americans have a right to hunt bison? Says who? Did the Europeans have the "right" to take the Natives land? Says who?
It is society that gets in the way. Its the American society that has killed the bison and destroyed the Native America.
Rights do NOT mean fair. Rights are arbitrary and subjective not God given, but they are man made. But I don't want to debate phiolosophy.
Mr. Harrison is correct on most of his statements. Some are a bit sensationalized and others are quite conservative with regards to how some people conduct themselves. I only wish he had made a stonger distinction between those who are good at keeping privately (10-15%) and those wanna be crocodile hunters (85-90%).
I have always followed the law and will continue to do so until my happiness is compromised. I have been fortunate to live in a states that have a permitting system which I am happy to obtain. Yet if that changes, I will never stop keeping native venomous unless I hurt someone or the ecology. If I am keeping safely and nobody is harmed I will NEVER stop because of a rule or law or other bull doo. Put me in jail. I'll get out and do it again and again and again. They will have to kill me.
That being said I do NOT advise, reccomend, or endorse the keeping of any animal illegally. These are just my personal feelings and do not reflect TCH Zoological's or midgetfadeds.com's position on venomous snakes. My feelings may be right or wrong, again its all relative folks. Humans will never agree on anything so which side of the arguement is "right"????
TCH Zoological and midgetfadeds.com has and always will follow all laws regarding wildlife and their husbandry.
My personal feeling is that anything goes as long as NOBODY gets hurt. Obviously, permits would help keep people from getting (key word) hurt. A ban would ensure nothing. It would only leave the door open for complete disregard of safety.
T.C.
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by ALA_herp31 on June 13, 2005
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Permit or no Permit, this division will end up being the death of our Hobby. I believe that Permits are a good way to control the flow of Disrespectful Keepers “meaning those that care less if one gets lose and bites their neighbors kids or themselves”. If permits are to be put in place, let it be in a good form, as not to take away the rights of Keepers that have experience, but cant offer the proof of such in full. Take me for example, I have worked off and on with Venomous Species for 14 years or so. As I say in my Profile, my major work with this Creatures was at a small local Zoo for 4 years “this Zoo is now closed, on the count of not having enough funds to stay open”. Even tho I have this experience and the State Law says you can keep nonnative Venomous with a Permit, they keep turning me down. They tell us that we can obtain a Permit, but they make it so hard that noone I know has been able to get one and to make thing even clearer, this people I know have even more experience than I do. If this is to be the Permit System Implemented, it would kill privet Keeping all together. This is the Governments way of sliding a fast one under your table. I will ask again and again, please fight this backdoor way of swiping our Hobby out the door. Just my opinion.........................Be safe ya’ll, happy herping Wally
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by Mustangrde1 on June 13, 2005
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QUOTE]
Kentucky Reptile Zoo’s position is that venomous reptiles and crocodilians can pose a danger to the general public, emergency responders, and fish and wildlife agents when kept as pets.[/QUOTE]
So can dogs, cats, horses and other commonly kept "Pets" So your point is?
[QUOTE]Kentucky Reptile Zoo believes that these animals can be kept responsibly, however this is not often the case. Responsible ownership of dangerous reptiles includes keeping proper antisera for venomous species, sturdy and secure caging, appropriate signage indicating venomous animals are present, and proper insurance to cover any accidents. [/QUOTE]
Antivenom as you know requires an BB-IND permit which Most people can not obtain legally. I will agree on the caging requirements then again a proper permitting system with inspections would insure that.
[QUOTE]We realize that to establish and enforce a permit system that would regulate ownership of these animals and create proper standards for their maintenance would be cost prohibitive to the state.[/QUOTE]
No it would not, Simply using the permitting system in Florida as a role model would cost the state very little and with a 100$ inspection fee and license charge it would more than make up for officers time and paperwork.
[QUOTE]Two recent snakebite deaths in Ohio underscore the need for this type of legislation. Both of these cases involved private individuals who kept exotic snakes as pets.[/QUOTE]
One was a firefighter who had been a long time keeper and made a mistake" accident" they happen no matter what you do from normal work to driving a car. Basing a ban on that action is ludicris at best.
[QUOTE]One main argument made by private owners is that they are the only ones who are put at risk by these animals, and that they have the right to take that risk if they so choose. It is our position that a private bite can and does affect many more people than just the individual owner. Please allow me to present an example scenario of snakebite to a private keeper. Initially, the keeper is bitten by an exotic snake for which he has no antivenom. The keeper is then at risk of death or permanent disfigurement due to the bite. Most snakebites are surviviable if proper antivenom can be located, however antivenom does not affect necrosis or death of tissue that can be caused by the venom. Therefore even if the victim survives there may be permanent loss of use of a limb, which could result in the person not being able to work. [/QUOTE]
I will simply say if your in a fire or car wreck you can be permanently disfigured or killed as well. Danger goes with many things in life and unless you live in a bubble the chances are you will get hurt or possibly killed daily. It is life. Any dramtic or catastophic accident can result in you not being able to work. So that is not a good example when life itself can deal you that blow from numerous ways.
[QUOTE]It goes without saying that most paramedics and other first responders are generally not trained to handle a venomous snake safely. Additionally, the unnecessary use of such personnel for this reason precludes their being able to respond to any other potential needs during that time period. [/QUOTE]
It goes without saying that most paramedics are not trained for this and is something herp societies need to adress by inviting them to meetings and working with them. I would like it clarified but what you ment when you said "precludes their being able to respond to any other potential needs during that time period" if your inferring that it takes away from other calls that is crazy they have to take any and every call they are dispatched to be it a dog bite or a woman having an heart attack.
[QUOTE]Once the victim arrives at the hospital, the treating doctors must generally attempt to locate the proper antivenom for the snake species that caused the bite. Generally, many private owners do not know what antivenom must be used, [/QUOTE]
I disagree mopst hot keepers I have spoke to do know what AV to use. I do admitt these people are possibly the exception to the rule however its still what i base my experiance as pertaining to this on.
[QUOTE]and we have even encountered cases where the person did not even know what species of snake they were bitten by.[/QUOTE]
Were these local species or exotics. If exotics i find it hard to beleive a person who buys an exotic does not know what bit him. If its a native species by a person simply not familiar with herps and got bitten in the outdoors you can not base that statement toward hot keepers.
[QUOTE]Usually the doctor calls the nearest zoos in an effort to locate antivenom. Zoo personnel then either supply the antivenom if they have it (and they only keep antivenom for the snakes they have, not all venomous snake species,) or call around to other zoos who will then supply the antivenom to the hospital. This process can take hours from the initial bite to the antivenom actually arriving at the hospital. Delay of treatment can result in reduced efficacy of the antivenom and more serious effects of the venom. [/QUOTE]
I agree 100% with that statement. To stop the problem a good permitting system rather than a BAN would have been aa better option. Instead of 100$ charge 300 or 500$ for the permit and form a AV bank with a percenatge of the license fee. Have it centralized in the state so all hospitals can take advantage of it. Hot keepers helping hot keepers and being responcible. Is there any keeper who would not jump at the ability to have a AV stock on hand? Further more make it a donation fund as well where for every vial of AV you buy its not charged to you IF you are ever bitten. That would cut down on hospital bills as well.
[QUOTE]Many private keepers tend to forget that zoos do not base their antivenom supply on how many private keepers have venomous snakes. Once a zoo supplies the antivenom to a private individual, their stock is seriously depleted or gone. This means that the zoos are then faced with a choice of either allowing their keepers to work the snakes with no antivenom, or simply neglecting the snakes until more antivenom can be acquired. Both of these choices violate the code of ethics that most zoos follow, as they strive for both top quality care of the animals in their collection and the utmost in safety for the keepers who work for them. This problem is compounded by the fact that most foreign antivenoms take at least six months to replace, as importation requires federal (USDA and FDA) permits, correspondence with overseas manufacturers, and shipping time. [/QUOTE]
More like less than 3 weeks or less once funds have been paid to the supplier, from a few people ive spoke to.
[QUOTE]Due to patient confidentiality concerns, we are not able to provide information on exotic bites that have occurred in the area other than what has appeared in the media. We would be happy to help locate such articles if you would like. Tennessee and Indiana currently have restrictive laws governing the ownership of dangerous animals. In light of the recent deaths in Ohio it seems plausible the state may pass laws as well. Overall 29 states currently have some type of dangerous animal legislation. It is our concern that if Kentucky does not follow suit then our state may become a dumping ground for these animals. [/QUOTE]
So jump on the band wagon instead of standing up and helping to build a system that will work for the keepers and the state. I feel this letter could have been written much better and there could have been a chance for herpers to work with a state. unfortunately it appears we have lost another state and chance.
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by FLVenom911 on June 13, 2005
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I couldnt agree more with the points that Scott bought up. Those were the facts and we all saw what their stand is on it.
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by captiveherps on June 13, 2005
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I think more people would keep antivenin if they were able to obtain it. Other than crofab, its very hard to get. I live in Canada and have contacted health Canada 3 times as I need to have a permit from them to import it. They have never responded to me in any way.
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