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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by Phobos on June 13, 2005
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Scott your wrong on few key A/V issues.
BB-Ind #s are easy to get, you just fill out the paperwork and have you doctor fill in their part and submit...period! Not difficult at all! The real fact is most people won't do it.
Yes, it can take months to get serum. Case in point: Matt Harris, who has his BB-IND#, has been trying since December to get Costa Rican Polyvalent because his previous stock is expiring. They told him they were not making any because of the plant being upgraded. Thai Red Cross King Cobra A/V production is off line because somebody broke in and stole all of the Snakes (King Cobras)to sell as food. No venom, you can't make A/V. You try to get ANYTHING out of India in 3 week, it's easier to get blood from a stone. I know, I've tried.
Lets remember that this serum costs serious $$ that Zoo's can't recover when they cough it up for a private keeper. Where do they get the $$ to replace it? Well??
Snakes, specifically venomous snakes are not well liked by the average state lawmaker. This is where your logic is flawed, why should they propose a permit system; not a complete ban on an animal that is almost uniformally, hated and feared? We have no lobby, no champions on the state legislatures, we are really without a voice. Jim & Kristen just spoke the truth about the issue and the ban would have happened anyway even if they remained quiet, just be thankful you live in Florida.
Al Coritz
www.neavb.org
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by Mustangrde1 on June 13, 2005
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Quote:Lets remember that this serum costs serious $$ that Zoo's can't recover when they cough it up for a private keeper. Where do they get the $$ to replace it? Well?? :end quote
My responce as already stated: Instead of 100$ charge 300 or 500$ for the permit and form a AV bank with a percenatge of the license fee. Have it centralized in the state so all hospitals can take advantage of it. Hot keepers helping hot keepers and being responcible. Is there any keeper who would not jump at the ability to have a AV stock on hand? Further more make it a donation fund as well where for every vial of AV you buy its not charged to you IF you are ever bitten. That would cut down on hospital bills as well.
In other words have the keepers pay for it simple solution to a problem.
Quoting again:Snakes, specifically venomous snakes are not well liked by the average state lawmaker. This is where your logic is flawed, why should they propose a permit system; not a complete ban on an animal that is almost uniformally, hated and feared? We have no lobby, no champions on the state legislatures, we are really without a voice. Jim & Kristen just spoke the truth about the issue and the ban would have happened anyway even if they remained quiet, just be thankful you live in Florida :end quote
And my reply to this as already stated: instead of standing up and helping to build a system that will work for the keepers and the state. I feel this letter could have been written much better and there could have been a chance for herpers to work with a state. unfortunately it appears we have lost another state and chance.
They had a GREAT oppertunity here to stand up as CHAMPIONS and a VOICE for all herp keepers instead they went the complete opposite way.
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by stopgetinpopped on June 13, 2005
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[Quote]
So can dogs, cats, horses and other commonly kept "Pets" So your point is? [quote]
The point is there are regulations and restrictions on dogs, cats and horses, proper housing, dietary requirements, safety measures and owner responsibility for those animals. Meaning people are aware of a dog in the house, or a horse in the house when responding and can act accordingly. How would they know there was an escaped Suphan cobra just by looking in an empty aquarium? If you would like to know how, ask the Dallas animal control and emergency responders? They'll tell you. I can tell you because it was thought that 2 Suphan Cobras were loose in a condo complex, one was captured the other never found for sure... I know because that Suphan now resides here! Big difference from cats dogs and horses. So that one doesn't work for you.
[Quote]
Antivenom as you know requires an BB-IND permit which Most people can not obtain legally. I will agree on the caging requirements then again a proper permitting system with inspections would insure that. [quote]
Antivenom is not illegal for anyone to obtain, just difficult. It would be nice if it was easier but if you were a responsible keeper you would keep your own. People have said they would keep venomous snakes here on this site if it were made illegal, so obviously even if it were illegal to keep sera why wouldn't these same people still keep it?
Why? because it is easier to use, borrow and never replace someone elses! Thats why!
[quote]
No it would not, Simply using the permitting system in Florida as a role model would cost the state very little and with a 100$ inspection fee and license charge it would more than make up for officers time and paperwork. quote
Lets see, just the staff salary of one officer with a salary of $25,000.00 would require 250 licenced and responsible keepers in that state. Do you really think there are that many keepers in Kentucky? How about responsible ones? How about the state of North Dakota? Pick your state...Florida barely has this many licensed keepers let alone responsible ones! Cost prohibative? You bet your scaly behind.
Do you think one officer per state is enough? What about days off? what about large states Like Texas? Do you think it is cost prohibative for that one officer to accept the permits, research the applicant, do training, correspondance, inspections AND issue the permits? not happening.
[quote]
One was a firefighter who had been a long time keeper and made a mistake" accident" they happen no matter what you do from normal work to driving a car. Basing a ban on that action is ludicris at best. quote
Do we know that it was an accident? Do we know there wasn't alcohol involved or a novice mistake like reaching into the cage to remove a water bowl? Or maybe a top opening cage? Free handleing, too short of a hook?
Why did the bite happen? Was it an I.V. bite? if it wasn't an I.V. bite did he have a protocol in place? how about antivenom? Pick any one of those or many other what ifs That doesn't strike me as responsible?
This bite is a good example of reasons for a ban from a states point of view. So are loose Suphan cobras, Suphan Cobra bites that use a zoo's AV. So does Urutu bites...the list goes on and on. Do you think that legislators don't watch CNN and hear of the 2 bushmaster bites in as many weeks that used zoo AV? Do you think they might say....."hmm how can I stop this from happening in MY state?"
[Quote,]
I will simply say if your in a fire or car wreck you can be permanently disfigured or killed as well. Danger goes with many things in life and unless you live in a bubble the chances are you will get hurt or possibly killed daily. It is life. Any dramtic or catastophic accident can result in you not being able to work. So that is not a good example when life itself can deal you that blow from numerous ways.
[Quote]
Yup, you're right. Life itself is dangerous. Things like drinking and driving, riding motorcycles without helmets, cars without seatbelts, kids not in car seats, smoking....venomous snake keeping. but wait these things are all regulated, restricted or banned. Oh, except for venomous snake keeping. But gee it's working on it, 29 states thats over half.
[Quote]
I disagree mopst hot keepers I have spoke to do know what AV to use. I do admitt these people are possibly the exception to the rule however its still what i base my experiance as pertaining to this on.
[Quote]
Well, "most" is certainly a far stretch from "all"
This also shows your limited exposure to large groups of venomous snake keepers.
5 years ago, I was awoken to a king cobra bite in Washington state. Gentleman was drinking, showing off ,was bitten, refused to go to the hospital for over 2 hours, finally goes, he's unconcious,someone tells the doc that it was a king cobra, search for A.V. Call to Terry 3 states away for King cobra AV at 2am. Terry scrambles, drives 55 minutes to work, another 25 to air force base...oh wait gets a call, "sorry it's a Pakistan Cobra...Woodland Park Zoo has the serum for them, sorry to disturb you"
I can't tell you how many calls and emails I have had to respond to of 'after the fact' keepers in the last 6 months alone. "what AV do I use for this snake I just bought"
[Quote]
Were these local species or exotics. If exotics i find it hard to beleive a person who buys an exotic does not know what bit him. If its a native species by a person simply not familiar with herps and got bitten in the outdoors you can not base that statement toward hot keepers.
[Quote]
In Bismark ND. Guy buys a Green mamba, Monocled cobra and a Death adder believing what the dealer told him. Things like treating cobra bites with "injections of oxygen in the bite site, mambas only knock you unconcious, no biggie and be careful with the death adder it might be able to kill you" This person lost his collection because he took it to a university to have a professor identify the mamba, because he saw a snake on Austin Stevens t.v show that was some kind of tree snake, wanting to make sure he didn't get ripped off. Oh and then wait, lets call Terry, well I don't like what he had to tell me about, safety, responsibility or Antivenom....
[Quote]
I agree 100% with that statement. To stop the problem a good permitting system rather than a BAN would have been aa better option. Instead of 100$ charge 300 or 500$ for the permit and form a AV bank with a percenatge of the license fee. Have it centralized in the state so all hospitals can take advantage of it. Hot keepers helping hot keepers and being responcible. Is there any keeper who would not jump at the ability to have a AV stock on hand? Further more make it a donation fund as well where for every vial of AV you buy its not charged to you IF you are ever bitten. That would cut down on hospital bills as well.
[Quote]
Just ask Al how many keepers jumped on the bandwagon that he and Matt are funding, coordinating, doing all of the paperwork, aquisition etc. Great Idea you have there Scott, but all of this permit stuff is about 5-10 years too late. Now all of you 'responsible' keepers are suffering from lack of action and involvement, lack of 'hot keepers helping hot keepers'
Also, 500 per keeper per year, right?
Just a little mathematical equation for you to cover one bite by a specific species. (keep in mind mono is always preferred over poly)
Australian polyvalent 1200.00 each. recommended of a minimum of 7-10 vials to cover a bite.
12,000.00 covers PNG and Au. species for one normal or minimal bite
Tiger snake 10 vials @ 250.00
2500.00
Costa Rica Poly 30.00 each
Recommended 5-15 vials to cover most latin american bites
450.00
Bioclon Polyvalent 250.00 each I hear now it is up to 500.00ea
20 vials
5,000.00
Coral snake 350.00
3 vials
1,050.00
SAIMR polyvalent 55.00ea
Minimum of 30 vials
1650.00
Boomslang specific 250.00
5 vials
1250.00
Thai red cross
Cobra 20 vials @ 40.00
800.00
Malayan Pit Viper 10 vials @ 40.00
400.00
King Cobra 30 vials @ 40.00
1200.00
Banded Krait 10 vials @ 40.00
400.00
Green Pit Viper 10 vials @40.00
400.00
Russells vipers 20 vials @ 40.00
800.00
That amounts to $27,900.00
Just to cover one mild to average bite from each of the most commonly kept venomous snakes on the market today.
now add one staff member to coordinate, order, fascilitate and deliver. lets give em a petty 20,000.00 a year.
47,900.00 per year (we can figure for average sake this would be per year even though serums last a little longer (if you actually get updated sera))
That takes 95.8 responsible venomous keepers per state willing to cough up 500.00 As you can't keep your AV banks to widely spread because it needs to arrive quickly.
Why not just get your own?
[Quote]
More like less than 3 weeks or less once funds have been paid to the supplier, from a few people ive spoke to.
[Quote]
Have you ever ordered Antivenom? Because if you can get it here in 3 weeks...you're hired!
I am currently awaiting Thai Red Cross AV that I started the permit process in November, 2004
Hmmmm, Thats a pretty common Antivenom that covers a pretty common group of venomous snakes that people keep...
[quote]
So jump on the band wagon instead of standing up and helping to build a system that will work for the keepers and the state. I feel this letter could have been written much better and there could have been a chance for herpers to work with a state. unfortunately it appears we have lost another state and chance.
[quote]
I suppose some could jump on the band wagon of private keepers. Thats a pretty slow moving inactive and lazy bandwagon. Otherwise some pro active legislation would be coming into play. I'm curious to see if there have ever been any proactive activity to protect this hobby from ourselves? In any state? It's always, after the fact whining.
I read KRZ letter, from my ability to read, it shows that they support responsible keepers. It also shows that native venomous, boids are still legal, I bet the state tried to get rid of those too.
Look at all the irrisponsibility going on. Keepers letting other keepers get bitten in the head!
No protocols for bites when they happen, cause yes bites can and do happen.
No antivenom for those bites..
Poor caging.
Idiot dealers selling venomous
lack of knowledge and experience.
lack of hot keepers helping hot keepers.
Leaving it to the zoos to clean up the mess.
Putting zoo staff at risk needlessly.
Lets see....hmmm. I'm sitting here trying to figure out why I actually support private venomous keeping? Probably because one day I might retire or quit and want to keep some fascinating animals. I sure hope that option will still be available to me...
But alas, my one and ONLY definition to 'responsible venomous reptile keeping' is
Proper knowledge, experience, caging, protocols and antivenom. If you miss only ONE of those, than yes....it is irresponsible.
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by devenomized on June 13, 2005
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I completly understand Phobos and I share his opinion regarding Mr. Harrison's letter.
If there is anything that I could do to help, please let me know.
Best Regards,
Christian G. Reina
DEVENOMIZED.COM
info@devenomized.com
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by ALA_herp31 on June 13, 2005
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If the powers that be in the Medical community could offer us a way to obtain A/V, at a reasonable price. Things might get better, but as is, at this time, probably 80% of the Keepers in this Country could not afford even one Unit of A/V. I would like to pose this question, if A/V Banks are not put in place to cover every Region of this country, how do you expect the moderate Keepers of simple means to even consider Keeping their beloved Animals? As an example, I am a moderate Keeper, I am not a wealthy man by any means. Is this Law loving Politician going to ignore me and wipe my ability to Keep off the map. You know, this situation could very easily kill 80% of our community. I find this to be a disturbing thought. Tragedy strikes in many forms even within our own group. As I put it in one of the Strays I wrote “give a inch and they take a mile”. Is this going to be the last time we get to show our worth to Science. I know we are not Herpetologist, but at least we do offer some insight into the Lives and Habits of these Creatures. A lot of the knowledge that has been gained about the way this Animals live, has come from Privet Keeping, has it not? Please Keep this in mind wile you ponder the situation...............Be safe ya’ll. Happy, hopeful it will last herping Wally
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by BWSmith on June 13, 2005
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Many people have good points here, but much of it has been offensive to me as a venomous keeper. The sweeping generalizations are ludicrous. I would venture to say that roughly HALF of venomous keepers are more prepared than some of you give it credit for. I am not going to go back and quote who said what because, frankly, I have lost all respect for many people in this issue and most of those that are supporting Jim Harrison's actions rank down there with Melissa Kaplan at this point. And Jim Harrison, he is running on my list with PETA now. He has committed treason on the venomous herpetological community. And I am of the mind that he should be the first member of the SHHS to have membership REVOKED. I suppose he never kept venomous before he worked at the "zoo". Of course there are issues that need to be taken care of, but supporting a ban is treason. All bans have ever done is produce a lucrative black market. And how likely are people to get their own AV if they are keeping illegal animals? They are still going to use the same AV from the same sources if they get bit. So what does it accomplish? Nothing but a self righteous and egotistical agenda. The sad truth is that people will still keep these animals, they will just go underground. Now what is better, a permit system where keepers have to follow regulations, requirements, and procedures, or people buying illegally (in which they will not seek vet care or AV) and not being trained or educated as would be required by a good permit system? Any that think a ban will solve the problem is delusional and needs to get a grasp on reality. I think Jimmy's thinking is that if people cannot keep them, then they will go to his "zoo" to see them. Too bad, I think, that he has lost visitation from every self respecting and informed venomous herpetoculturist.
I am amazed that there are those showing support for his actions. I can only assume that they have an agenda in which Jimmy is helping them out. I cannot fathom any other reason for such blind, immoral, and illogical support.
Yes, a random and sporadic rant. But it is hard to type when your hands are shaking from anger.
B W Smith
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by stopgetinpopped on June 13, 2005
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Wally,
I completely understand your point, I'm not a rich guy either ( I'm a zookeeper haha )
Lets take Scott Bice for example as per his profile for species kept.
Let's just go with him relying on the local hospital for the Cro fab for his native snakes.
So for his exotics collection
Green Mamba - SAIMR poly 15 vials at 55 dollars each
total of 675.00
And green pit viper antivenom at 10 vials at 40.00 each
400.00
and Thai red cross cobra 15 vials @ 40.00 ea
600.00
Depending on what cobras he keeps you may be able to go without the thai serum if he has only african cobras. But let's assume he has both.
Thats a total of 1675.00 now this is an expense every 3-5 years
I think that a keeper of even the most limited income could afford to budget that in?
If not, limit yourself to just african stuff. The SAIMR poly covers a wide range of interesting animals.
It's cheap and one of the easiest serums to get ahold of...usually.
the only serum that is out of reach for most 'normal' people would be the Australian animals. So what, instead of Taipans get mambas, death adders get european adders... you get the idea.
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by stopgetinpopped on June 13, 2005
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Where do you get "half" of venomous keepers are prepared......
There are probaby 1-2% of the people that read any of these forums that have their own serum. Not just the ones that post but all the ones that just sit back and read them and never post.
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by stopgetinpopped on June 13, 2005
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Oh and the key here is that there wasn't a "ban" it is restricted to exotic venomous. Keepers are still allowed to have natives....
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RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
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by BWSmith on June 13, 2005
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"half" refers to those that I am aware of. Actually, close to 90% of those that I am aware of. The other 40% is left to those that are not active in the venomous community. Where do you get your 1%-2%?
B W Smith
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