Venom storage and feeding frozen thawed - Experts Forum at VenomousReptiles.org

Venom storage and feeding frozen thawed	Reply
by here2learn on July 20, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
I have recently aquired a Broadbanded Copperhead that has been in captivity and feeding on thawed rodents for just over 7 years. My question has to due with potential problems due to venom buildup or venom just not being used. It doesn't look like she envenomates the the mice she just sucks them down. Is there any known problems with this? My previous HOTS I had always fed live and never gave it much thought. I have kept this girl on her standard of frozen thawed rodents to this point. thanks

RE: Venom storage and feeding frozen thawed	Reply
by rickyduckworth on July 20, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
i was thinking about this the other day......i always let mine "flex their venom muscles" at least once a year but there isn't a lot of info about whether it's OK or not.....the venom helps digest, and a lot of hots eat a f/t without ever hitting it.......

RE: Venom storage and feeding frozen thawed	Reply
by Cro on July 20, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
Matthew, I like to have my snakes bite prey animals from time to time, and use up some of the stored venom. I will hold the frozen / thawed mice in front of the snakes with forceps or chopsticks, and try to get them to strike, and then drop the mouse and leave them to eat it after the strike. Many of the Copperheads and Cottonmouths will not let go, but will hang on to the mouse. This is a behavior often seen in snakes that are used to feeding on fish and frogs. It makes sense that snakes should use some of their venom from time to time, and replace it with a fresh supply. I do not know of any studys that say it is not healthy for them to not use venom, but would suspect that it is good for them to use it from time to time, and then replace it. Best Regards JohnZ

RE: Venom storage and feeding frozen thawed	Reply
by LarryDFishel on July 21, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
I've never heard any "proof" that this is a problem, but I can't completely rule it out. However, I would think the chances of it being a serious problem are far lower than the chances of an injury from a live rodent. I've actually seen a mouse bitten by a mojave rattler in a long strike from across the cage, run the length of the cage and attack the snake! Lickily he attacked the middle of the body and couldn't penetrate the scales. I usually only use live food when a snake goes off feed for no obvious reason. Usually, the live food will get their interest back up, and after a few meals they go back to frozen.

RE: Venom storage and feeding frozen thawed	Reply
by SwampY on July 21, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
did you ever stop to think that while walking the fangs down dead prey to pull it into their mouth, they could be injecting venom to help start digesting the prey from the inside out?

RE: Venom storage and feeding frozen thawed	Reply
by ALA_snake33 on July 21, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
Most of the Venomous Snakes I have Kept seem to give a Good Envenomation when I wiggled the Mouse in a Frantic Motion. This imitates the Get Away Movements of Pray, and seems to get their Heat up. Now, some Snakes are such Finicky Eaters, that they wouldn’t even come near a Struggling Mouse. In this case there’s not much you can do. Remember Snakes are like people, some are scared of anything that moves. In any case, I tend to agree with Chad. Wile the Snake is Working the Mouse, or what ever the Food Item may be down, it is probably using its Deadly Supply to help in Digestion . ............................Be Safe Ya’ll, Happy Herping : Wally

RE: Venom storage and feeding frozen thawed	Reply
by rickyduckworth on July 21, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
i've seen them envenomate as they're pulling it in with their fangs but only with animals they killed......i've never seen any evidence of injection when it was a f/t.....

RE: Venom storage and feeding frozen thawed	Reply
by LarryDFishel on July 23, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
Ricky, just wondering...how do you know a snake is envenomating a dead mouse? (Not trying to be a jerk, seriously wondering what you mean.)

RE: Venom storage and feeding frozen thawed	Reply
by LarryDFishel on July 23, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
I should have added a couple more questions: First for Ricky, how do you know a snake is NOT injecting a thawed mouse? Then for anyone here that might know (especially anyone with a medical background), would the venom actually go anywhere in the tissues of a freshly dead mammal? If so, would it go anywhere in one that's been dead a while (frozen thawed)? Is it even possible to inject a fluid into dead tissue? I guess it must be, but does it take more pressure than live or fresh tissue?

RE: Venom storage and feeding frozen thawed	Reply
by ALA_snake33 on July 24, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
Larry : you just maid a good point, as we all know Blood Flow is what carries Toxins to their targets. It would be safe to assume the Venom is not acting as it should because of the lake of Blood Flow. I mean really, it doesn’t figure that it would do any good for the Snake to Inject a Dead Pray Item “it’s already dead” and im sure the Snake knows this. Ohh well, who knows? I still use my old Wiggle the Mouse thing, and hope the Snake gives a good Envenomation. I wonder if anyone in the Venomous Community has tried to do Research to Test this idea? ................................Be Safe Ya’ll, Happy Herping : Wally

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