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non-venomous used as hot trainers
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by Bluefish on November 23, 2006
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hello everyone,
I was wondering if anyone could provide a list or information regarding good non-hot trainer snakes that correspond to a hot. For example, a small testy emerald tree boa might be a good trainer for tree vipers. Or an aggressive untame pissed off red-tail boa at around 5' might work for the larger rattlers or maybe a gaboon. I don't know if these are good matches, just thinking out loud so to speak.
The idea here is to deal with a nightmare non-venomous snake with a serious attitude, of similar build and behavioral characteristics to a venomous group in order to prepare for when mistakes can't happen. A mistake with an angry python may hurt but it wont kill me and I would learn.
I know there will always be significant differences and this would not substitute training with a professional but supplement it.
Any information would be appreciated.
Thank you,
Tom
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RE: non-venomous used as hot trainers
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by YoungHerp1 on November 23, 2006
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I would think training with non venomous will help in a way, like getting use to handeling with the hooks and proper tools. BUT the trainy may get comfertable with handleing the non venomous, and do the same with the hotts. You no what i mean? Like say a begginer was handeling a big nasty amazon tree boa. they no its not venomous and would be less carful with it rather than a tree viper. Just my 2 cents and opinions.
Happy holidays
Mike
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RE: non-venomous used as hot trainers
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by SwampY on November 24, 2006
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I believe you need a certain amount of experience at keeping snakes in general before venomous, but there is no way you're going to learn the subtleties of hots through handling nonvens. You're just not going to handle them the same way if the danger isn't there. Coachwhips and mambas are very similar in build and speed, but there are things you'll do with a coachwhip and not get bitten that you just can't do with a mamba because of the danger. It's hard to explain.
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RE: non-venomous used as hot trainers
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by GREGLONGHURST on November 24, 2006
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My thoughts exactly, Chad. There are some snakes that have the build & actions, to a certain extent, of hots, but there are enough differences to make it hardly worth the effort. Watersnakes would be great starters for cottonmouths or other crotalids, except that they do not ride a hook like one. In fact, few non-vens ride a hook, with the possible exception of some constrictors, & even with them it's just not the same. You can have all the time you want with non-venomous snakes, but except for learning proper husbandry, it really does nothing to prepare you for your first hot. I have always said the hardest venomous snake in the world to handle is the first one. That one, my friends, has hair all over it.
~~Greg~~
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RE: non-venomous used as hot trainers
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by Cro on November 24, 2006
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I agree with Chad and Greg. Working with a non-venomous snake is just not the same as working with a venomous snake, even if the non-venomous snake is nasty tempered and shares the basic body build and speed of a venomous snake.
It is kind of like saying that you once had a cap gun as a kid, so you should now be able to safely handle a real firearm. Or saying that you once played a video game so you can now go out and pilot a real jet fighter.
Working with venomous snakes is best learned with the help of a mentor. They will be able to show you many handling techniques that you will never learn by reading internet forums, or care sheets, or by working with non-venomous snakes. So much of it is subtle, and not at all possible to learn from the printed word.
Make the effort to find someone who works with venomous snakes and has a lot of experience and have them teach you.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: non-venomous used as hot trainers
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by Bluefish on November 24, 2006
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Thanks for the input but let me repeat myself...
"I know there will always be significant differences and this would not substitute training with a professional but supplement it"
Now does anyone have an approximate non-ven match for various hots?
Coachwhip or racer for elapids, got it.
Anything else?
Thanks for your time,
Tom
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RE: non-venomous used as hot trainers
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by Cro on November 24, 2006
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Actually Tom, I am not sure you "got it" or not.
Chad did not say that Coachwhip and Racers are good training snakes for working with elapids, he said that there are similaritys in speed and body build, but he also said that there are other factors that are not easy to explain in print that are very important.
And Greg said that it is not worth fooling with non-venomous snakes in an effort to learn venomous snake handling, as the venomous snakes will behave differently.
And I said that working with a non-venomous snake is not the same as working with a venomous one.
Working with non-venomous snakes will help you learn to use the tools of the trade, such as hooks, tongs, tubes, snake bags, etc. But it will in no way teach you the many subtile things you need to know about venomous snake keeping.
To learn venomous snake keeping, you have to work with venomous snakes. And that is best learned with a mentor who can show you subtile things you will never learn from keeping non-venomous snakes or in print.
It is good that you want to learn, and good that you realise that there are significant differences that would not substitute for training with a professional, but you still seem to think there is such a thing as a "training snake" that will help you get ready to keep venomous snakes.
You have just been advised by three venomous snake keepers with over 100 years of venomous reptile keeping experience that there are NO approximate non-venomous snakes that match venomous snakes in learning how to deal with them.
Your best bet is to work with a real venomous snake, such as a copperhead, cottonmouth, or pygmy rattlesnake, or one of the Asian tree vipers and realise from the start you are working with a "loaded gun." Snakes like these will not kill you if you are bitten, but sure can hurt you if you make a mistake. This will make you very, very awair of being carefull. Much more carefull than if you were keeping a coachwhip or boa. Folks here will be willing to give advise in advance if you ask on husbandry. And we might be able to steer you to a mentor, if you fill in the rest of your profile and let us know what part of the country you live in. But as far as suggesting a non-venomous snake that will prepare you for venomous keeping, I doubt that you will find many of the experiened keepers here who will tell you that a non-venomous snake will make you ready for venomous keeping.
Hope this helps.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: non-venomous used as hot trainers
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by kacz on November 24, 2006
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I think Tom is looking for a list of analogous snakes. For example: A nasty coachwhip acts like a mamba (excuse the analogy, I’ve never handled a mamba). The theory being that learning to ride a bicycle imparts some skills required for learning to ride a motorcycle. The trouble is that this theory only holds true in a very limited manner. Mastering the containment of a nasty coachwhip is a good exercise in coordination and agility. What can it tell you? Just one thing - if you can’t handle the coachwhip, don’t try the mamba! If you can handle the coachwhip it does not infer, in any way, that you can handle the mamba.
This last point is what I believe the other respondents were saying. Handling hots adds a whole new dimension to the skills and MINDSET necessary for mastery over the animal. Remember this can be quite literally life and death. Relying on your experience with the analog, when handling a venomous snake, can be a disaster waiting to happen. While the handling of any non-venomous species is a good learning experience, it does not translate into the handling of venomous snakes very well. Such a list would be a disservice to the advancing herper.
Paul M. Kaczmarczik
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RE: non-venomous used as hot trainers
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by Cro on November 24, 2006
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Paul, you have it exactly right!
To learn venomous snake keeping, you have to work with venomous snakes.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: non-venomous used as hot trainers
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by Bluefish on November 25, 2006
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So wait, I should get a mamba to train a coachwhip, but never get a coachwhip to train a mamba...or was that I should train a mamba by whipping a coach...or train my coach by whipping his mamba or...
just kidding, thanks for the advice.
regards,
Tom
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