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RE: Crotalus Horridus?
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by hapkidocrochunter on October 16, 2007
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Wow, very interesting. I am a college student, studying life science to eventually, after graduate studies, work with venomous reptiles. I am glad this discussion is going on, I always thought, from what I've read, that they were a subspecies of the timber, not the same. Thats cool though, you learn something new everyday.
well, i just referenced it to Mark O'Shea's book "Venomous Snakes of the world" and it does indeed say that " Two subspecies have been recognized in the PAST, the northern, darker timber rattler of the wooded slopes, and the lighter, southern canebrake rattler, named for its liking for canefields, which was characterized by an orange stripe down its back. Today, three distinct populations are recognized, northern, southern, and eastern, but subspecies names are NO LONGER ALLOCATED"
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RE: Crotalus Horridus?
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by JSargent on October 16, 2007
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what about the coppers? i hear they are going to put all four subspecies into two species? doing away with subspecies doesn't make much sense to me...i may have to turn into a locality freak...corns were so much easier....not knockin' the folks that keep up with the counties their animals come from, but i'm a morph nut...and i'll always call my albino a canebrake...
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RE: Crotalus Horridus?
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by Cro on October 16, 2007
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James, it is looking like they will re-do both the Copperheads and the Cottonmouths, all based on mDNA.
We could wind up with 3 Copperheads and 2 Cottonmouths.
Should be an interesting year for taxonomy.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Crotalus Horridus?
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by Chris_Harper on October 16, 2007
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Check out the photo album on horridus variations:
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/libraries/Horridus%20Variations
CH
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RE: Crotalus Horridus?
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by earthguy on October 16, 2007
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Ummm...I missed a paper. Who's redoing the Agkistrodon? I've actually heard murmurs in the wind, but have seen no evidence. So...who dunnit?
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RE: Crotalus Horridus?
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by 23bms on October 16, 2007
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The orange vertebral stripe is NOT peculiar to the "Canebrake" variant. It is quite common - in fact, almost universal - in juvenile Timbers up here in the NE, and can be particularly striking in black phase individuals. It's prominence may vary wildly from individual to individual within a population and within a litter but it is rarely absent. It generally has a rust or orange tint but in some yellow phase examples may be a yellow that is somewhat darker than the ground color. There is a tendency for it to fade somewhat with age though it is usually remains discernible in even very old specimens.
A casual survey of some of the photos I've taken at den areas over the last twenty-five years failed to produce a single example in which the stripe wasn't present to some degree. In some cases, an eighteen inch black phase that I photographed this past spring being a good example, the stripe is more prominent and more intensely orange than in many of the so-called Canbrakes that I've seen.
jrb
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RE: Crotalus Horridus?
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by Snake18 on October 17, 2007
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I am not very familiar with the studies involving the sistematics of the Crotalus horridus species.
But here are my 2 cents:
If there are true geographical boundries separating the canebrake's distribution and the timber's distribution. If there are significant (p<0.05) morphological (meristical or metric characters) and chromatic differences, then it would be pretty acceptable that they should be separate subspecies. If not, it makes no sence to split them. Of course, genetic research could also back up one of the theories.
All the best,
Alex
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