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RE: Input on possible feds ban on boa/python
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by tigers9 on February 3, 2008
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No, the proposed exotic snake situation is worse than current exotic cat situation. Our cats are NOT labeled injurious wildlife, so we can still posses and sell or donate them INSIDE our state, NO federal posession permit needed, all we worry about is the local laws.
With snake situation, by labeling them INJURIOUS, you need federal permit to even posses them and sell/donate them INSIDE your state, donor and receiver BOTH need to have federal injurious wildlife permit, regardless of where the seller/buyer/donor/receiver live,this is worse than what we cat folks are dealing with , trust ,me.
Have a lawyer look at it if you don't believe me.
Z
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RE: Input on possible feds ban on boa/python
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by tigers9 on February 3, 2008
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Here is clearly says NO posession without permit.This is not just transport issue.I am on many forums, getting tired and frustrated tryign to explain this. (even atatcked by idiots, the idiot comment does NOT refer to Andrew or this forum:) ) .
anyway, I have a work to do, and I am just repeating myself here, so here it is last time, keywords are prohibit, posesssion, without permit:
<snip>
prohibit the importation into, or transportation between, States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any territory or possession of the United States by any means, without a permit. <snip>
http://www.fws.gov/policy/library/E8-1770.html
pose a threat to the interests of agriculture, horticulture, forestry; to the health and welfare of human beings; and to the welfare and survival of wildlife and wildlife resources in the United States. An injurious wildlife listing would prohibit the importation into, or transportation between, States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any territory or possession of the United States by any means, without a permit. Permits may be issued for scientific, medical, educational, or zoological purposes. This document seeks comments from the public to aid in determining if a proposed rule is warranted.
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RE: Input on possible feds ban on boa/python
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by yoyoing on February 3, 2008
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I am not a lawyer, but I believe the reference is about transport to "possessions" of the US, not about possession of snakes.
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RE: Input on possible feds ban on boa/python
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by Buzztail1 on February 3, 2008
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<snip>
prohibit the importation into, or transportation between, States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any territory or possession of the United States by any means, without a permit. <snip>
This snip specifically refers to Guam (possession of the US), St Croix (US Virgin Islands and therefore a possession), etc. Hawaii was a "possession" until 1959 when it became a state. It does not refer to transferring possession of the snakes within a particular state.
This is a dangerous change.
It is the start of the end of the reptile trade.
Even if you don't keep boas and pythons, venomous snakes could very easily be next. Let's face it, Rainbow Boas, Ball Pythons, and more examples than I care to take the time to list ARE NOT A HAZARD to anyone! This change needs to be STOPPED!
R/
Karl H. Betz
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RE: Input on possible feds ban on boa/python
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by tigers9 on February 3, 2008
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Wow, just got a lesson in history, thanks, I guess I never thought of the little islands as posessions.:)
Anyway, when u read the actual current permitting system for animals already om injurious list, it is clear that any animal or offspring or eggs of injurious animal under the permit can only be sold/donated/transferred only to other permitted facility.
This boa/python deal is bad, u need to realize, by including them in injurious wildlife, it is same category as mongoose,(for those who knwo hard impossible it is to own mongose and stories behind it), even AZa zoos need to go thru some process to get these types of animals, as for non AZA folks to get permit to have injurious wildlife, ....
Z
==
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=21a799a7a47b18d119c058dda67900a9&rgn=div5&view=text&node=50:1.0.1.2.10&idno=50#50:1.0.1.2.10.3.13.1
16.22 Injurious wildlife permits.
top
The Director may, upon receipt of an application and in accordance with the issuance criteria of this section, issue a permit authorizing the importation into or shipment between the continental United States, the District of Columbia, Hawaii, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any possession of the United States of injurious wildlife (See subpart B of this part) for zoological, educational, medical, or scientific purposes.
(a) Application requirements. Submit applications for permits to import, transport or acquire injurious wildlife for such purposes to the Director, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, (Attention: Office of Management Authority), 4401 N. Fairfax Drive, Room 700, Arlington, VA 22203. Submit applications in writing on a Federal Fish and Wildlife License/Permit application (Form 3–200) and attach all of the following information:
(1) The number of specimens and the common and scientific names (genus and species) of each species of live wildlife proposed to be imported or otherwise acquired, transported and possessed;
(2) The purpose of such importation or other acquisition, transportation and possession;
(3) The address of the premises where such live wildlife will be kept in captivity;
(4) A statement of the applicant's qualifications and previous experience in caring for and handling captive wildlife.
(b) Additional permit conditions. In addition to the general conditions set forth in part 13 of this subchapter B, permits to import or ship injurious wildlife for zoological, educational, medical, or scientific purposes shall be subject to the following conditions:
(1) All live wildlife acquired under permit and all progeny thereof, must be confined in the approved facilities on the premises authorized in the permit.
(2) No live wildlife, acquired under permit, or any eggs or progeny thereof, may be sold, donated, traded, loaned, or transferred to any other person unless such person has a permit issued by the Director under §16.22 authorizing him to acquire and possess such wildlife or the eggs or progeny thereof.
(3) Permittees shall notify the nearest Special Agent-in-Charge (see §10.22 of this chapter) by telephone or other expedient means within 24 hours following the escape of any wildlife imported or transported under authority of a permit issued under this section, or the escape of any progeny of such wildlife, unless otherwise specifically exempted by terms of the permit.
(c) Issuance criteria. The Director shall consider the following in determining whether to issue a permit to import or ship injurious wildlife for zoological, educational, medical, or scientific purposes:
(1) Whether the wildlife is being imported or otherwise acquired for a bona fide scientific, medical, educational, or zoological exhibition purpose;
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RE: Input on possible feds ban on boa/python
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by Gabino on February 3, 2008
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I'm sorry about my last comment. I honestly wasn't trying to offend anyone. I misunderstood the article and I truly apologize. Sorry if I may have made anyone a little mad.
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RE: Input on possible feds ban on boa/python
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by Cro on February 3, 2008
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Zuzana is right when she states "No, the proposed exotic snake situation is worse than current exotic cat situation. Our cats are NOT labeled injurious wildlife, so we can still posses and sell or donate them INSIDE our state, NO federal posession permit needed, all we worry about is the local laws.
With snake situation, by labeling them INJURIOUS, you need federal permit to even posses them and sell/donate them INSIDE your state, donor and receiver BOTH need to have federal injurious wildlife permit, regardless of where the seller/buyer/donor/receiver live,this is worse than what we cat folks are dealing with , trust ,me."
This proposed change in the law is far worse than any attempt to restrict reptiles at a state level. If the USFWS decides that Boas and Pythons are Injurious Wildlife, how long behind that will Venomous Reptiles also be considered Injurious ???
If this passes, it will shut down the sale of Boas and Pythons Nation Wide, as the dealers will not be able to transport them to pet shops, or reptile shows, and individuals will not be able to move their animals with them if they move to another state.
While the proposed change is not an outright ban on these animals, it might as well be. Possession will be limited to animals on hand in a given state, and taking the animals accross state lines will be banned !
Others here have stated that they expect the API/Born Free to jump on this soon. API were probably the ones behind this in the first place! They probably influenced some folks in USFWS. Has anyone researches what individuals in USFWS are behind this, and what their ties are to the animal rights groups ?
It was the influence of certain GA individual in the USFWS who helped push the restrictive laws that Georgia now has throught the State Department of Natural Resources, even though as a Federal Agency member, they should have not been involved.
Also, I question the statement "The American (Association)of Reptile Keepers (ARK) are in talks with corporate interests and leaders in the Herp community." From what I remember, this organization is only proposed, and does not even exhist yet. (Google cant find a web site for it yet ?). At most (ARK) is made up of two state ARK groups, and maybee a couple of other states who have a few folks who want to start similar groups, and does not have much national influence. This is not to say that they will not be of use in their states in getting information out to reptile keepers, as they have shown that at a State level, they do have influence on State level laws. It is just to say that it will take far more effort than state groups to stop this, and trying to make them sound like something much larger than they are will not help.
This is a National Problem! It involves a Federal Agency. It will require the National Reptile Community to come togehter and flood the USFWS with well constructed letters that address what they have proposed. They seem to want specific information on how this proposal will effect the economic lives of those who are involved in the reptile business, and they want input from scientists who can address the fact that not all boas and pythons are a danger to the enviornment, or to individuals.
Remember, it will be very easy for them to next decide that Venomous Reptiles are INJURIOUS, and pass National Regulations agains them next, if they pass this regulation against Boas and Pythons.
It is time to start writing not only the USFWS, but also contacting all others in the pet industry, through your local pet shops, reptile societies, zoos, wildlife parks, etc.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Input on possible feds ban on boa/python
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by MoccasinMan on February 4, 2008
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Z is right. If USFWS designate boas and pythons as "injurious wildlife", that will equate to a ban on import, interstate transport, ownership, breeding, everything; much as is the case with the mongoose. Even AZA has to jump through hoops to aquire "injurious wildlife".
What is necessary is to organize at the national level in order to have a strong grassroots effort supported by attorneys, lobbyists and a strong fundraising apparatus. Naysayers will always be naysayers, but ARK is pulling together the tools, personel and funding to try and create an organized effort to address this situation. It won't help to try and undermine efforts to do something positive for the community. This is far bigger than NCARK and SCARK.
Andrew
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