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RE: Reckless endangerment of our hobby
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by Cro on March 10, 2008
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Shelby, I had an old yeller house cat once. And the durn thing jumped onto a box of great herp books and took a dump all over them. Lost like $300.00 of books that day. No one wants the two volume set of Klauber's Rattlesnakes or Kauffield's Snakes and Snake Hunting after a cat has craped on half the pages, LOL ! The litter box thing was only a few feet away, and clean, so there was no excuse for the cat to do that.
I told the cat he had to leave, and he was adapted by a family down the street, after he figgured out he was not welcome at my house anymore.
I kind of like cats. Especially the ones that are friendly and know their boundries. I have two or three friends who keep cats that I would be tempted to keep at my home, but those are the exceptions to the rule. And I really like and admire legitimate wild cats, like cougars, lynx and bobcats.
But I also know many folks who keep these semi-wild, non-house cats, that serve no purpose other than killing what ever animal they find. They are too wild for their kids to pet them. But they come by to eat every day the food that is put out for them. That type of "pet" keeping I just dont understand.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Reckless endangerment of our hobby
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by soberwolf on March 10, 2008
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John, my bad.. If my cat crapped on Klauber... I'd invite the coyotes for a meal lol
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RE: Reckless endangerment of our hobby
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by richardduckworth on March 11, 2008
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falconry?
we're talking about a smaller community with far less interest, an animal that isn't seen as deadly and is even seen as majestic and beautiful by the average person, it's treated as a SPORT by most states, a form of hunting, so you have all the hunters supporting it, which most fish and game guys are, etc.
there really is no comparison. when PeTA decides to attack that industry, it is done with. when PeTA really decides to attack the whole hunting scene, they're in for tons of changes. all that matters is who is in whose pockets. there are tons of hunters in power and in the pockets of those in power. there are few, if any, venomous keepers in those pockets.
it's all about pull, and we have none and never will. if we did, then it would mean we had numbers and it's obvious that numbers mean there will be more incidents and nothing else. the lack of education isn't something that will go away. people are spending more and more on entertainment every year.
there is just NO chance. the only thing that could have happened was for it to NEVER become an issue and let it be what it is. let the masses jump on some other community's back.
anything that isn't mainstream is at risk. the USA is a mob, and either you're in or out.
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RE: Reckless endangerment of our hobby
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by ChuckHurd on March 11, 2008
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Kerry,
I do not know you and let me start by saying I appreciate your passion. Gus and David Weathers are both friends of mine, as well as, countless free handlers that you wouldn't know by name. Some do it for religious reasons, some do it to bond with the snake, and I am sure there are countless other reasons. The main thing I want you to understand is, they have just as much right to free handle as you have to keep those cobras in a daul locking cage, inside of a locked escape resistant room. Your point is simple, that is an added risk and its bad for the snake keeping hobby, but if that gives you the right to denounce free handlers, then it gives other the right to denounce you. The ball python and corn snake keepers can easily say, keeping cobras is an unnecessary risk and its bad for snake keeping.....and my friend, that is just as true as the statements made about free handling. Some ball pythoners feel that ALL venomous keepers endanger snake keeping in general. When you look at the new regs that are being passed, they are not only outlawing cobras and rattlers, they are including many constrictors. Now, dog and cat people can make the same claim about ball pythoners making it more difficult for ALL pet keepers...and that argument can be made. The AP is not going to stop with reptiles. If they win that battle, they are coming for the dogs next....reptiles make an easy target, so they start there. Venomous reptiles make an even better target, and free handlers are still an even better target. We need to stop thinking in terms of us and them. We all better unite, or there will be no snakes to free handle or to put inside a double locked cage inside of an escape resistant hot room.
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Samuel 'Chuck' Hurd
Professional Educator / Venomous Reptile Curator
www.ChuckHurd.com
423.580.7513 (txt capable)
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RE: Reckless endangerment of our hobby
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by LordViperTX on March 11, 2008
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I am man enough to admit when someone makes a good point and you, sir, have. However, at the risk of being a "doomy" I think the fellow who said that the end is near probably has the most valid point. It's just a matter of time.
I will truly be sad when that comes. I guess I'll have to rely on trips to the zoo for my cobra gazing...
That is, until the "animals rights" folks get THEM shut down too. Hopefully I'll be dead by then. :(
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RE: Reckless endangerment of our hobby
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by Cro on March 11, 2008
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Free handlers set a bad example for this hobby when they do it in public, wether it is at reptile shows, or on UTube.
They are doing something that if copied by younger herpers, could get those younger herpers killed.
Herpers who use locked cages, and locked rooms, and follow safety protocols, have a much better chance of convincing the general public, and the legislature folks, that the snakes they keep are being kept safely, and are of no danger to the neighbors.
Would we have more luck in fighting bad legislation if we could all band toghether ? Sure.
Do responsible keepers want to band together with free handlers who are percieved as being dangerous ? Heck No.
We also don't want to band together with the turtle keepers, or the gecko keepers, or the frog folks, that is why this hobby is in serious trouble.
There are a few things out there that bring all reptile and amphibian keepers together, such as Reptiles Magazine. However, until Dick Bartlett and Bill Love decide to organize all the members who subscribe to those magazines into a national herpetological society, there is little hope for us using all of the potential power that we have in numbers, to create an organization that would have the same impact on legislators as the NRA does for gun keepers. I hope Dick and Bill will consider taking things that way.
In the mean time, folks who do things like free handling venomous reptiles, no matter what their personal reasons, should not do that in a public place where they can influence others to think our hobby is more dangerous than it is.
Just my .03 cents worth, (inflation).
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Reckless endangerment of our hobby
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by tigers9 on March 11, 2008
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I am with Chuck. Years ago USDA big cat owners would point fingers and say it is the non USDA pet owners who are to blame for everything, they pissed me off, I compiled statistics and whoa, around 80% of incidents were in USDA facilities, which makes sense, they are more likely to be in public and have their animals in touch with more people that pet cats.
In any case, the accidents are very rare, whether u r pet owner or pro:
http://www.rexano.org/Statistics/NumberOddsDeathLifeExotic.pdf
All USDA license means u comply with animal welfare act how to house, feed and water the mammals, USDA is not a tiger training facility, anybody who is USDA dog breeder can add a tiger to their facility, no extra licensing needed.
So lately the separation issue between USDA and non USDA big cat owners is getting better, since USDA people are now getting banned too, they see what is really happening, same needs to happen in herp community whether u free handle or not, whether u have snake or turtle, injuries or deaths are RARE, that is a fact.
If this was about public safety, turtles under 4 inches would be legal and organic salad and peanut butter would be banned instead.
This is about emotional AR agenda about keeping animals in captivity.
Chuck is right, we need to stick together.
Anyway for those of you who need some comic relief and like me do or used to raise your own feeder rodents only to end up with too many cute pet rodents, here are some old videos I just converted for YouTube.
Z
Newest video on REXANO Reptilehaven
Mouse on wheels
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCmw6NveKCo
hamster wheel of death on Rexano channel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw1EFT9j-U0
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RE: Reckless endangerment of our hobby
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by ChuckHurd on March 11, 2008
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No one will try to argue with that John, however, same principle applies. Ball pythoners can easily make the argument that you keeping those cottonmouths is inherently too dangerous and you shouldn't be allowed to do it. You having those things will encourage younger reptile keepers to want cottonmouths and may lead to them getting killed. You understand your passion and why you do the things you do, but a ball pythoner will never get it. Those that wish to free handle, understand why they do it, but you may never. As most of you know, I have a Harley. I used to see a t-shirt at biking events, it was pretty simple. Showed a H/D and said, "if I have to explain, you will never understand." This is the same principle. Some get it and some don't. but the over lapping principle is, venomous keeping is inherently dangerous. We all are taking risks and people can point at. We don't need to be the ones pointing. And as always, I love the subliminal message about free handling at a reptile show. ha ha
Kerry, rest assured, if the AP wins against the private sector, they are coming after the zoos. That is what Z is on the forefront trying to preach. The AZA in all their wisdom is backing the AP in most of their crusades against us, but when we are gone, the AP is going to set its scope on the zoos. All the venomous keepers need to put up a united front, from those of you with the 72" hook that don't like to be in the same room with your snakes when they are not under lock and key all the way up to David Weathers and Gus Onebear. From there, all reptile keepers need a united front, from us, to the folks with one lep gecko on the living room coffee table. And from there all private animal owners, from us, to the ball pythoners, to the one gecko families to Z and her tiger crowd, and finally the dog/cat crowd needs to present a united front against the AP crowd....and the AZA better wake up and jump ship from AP to us. Sure, the current regs are excluding the AZA crowd, but that is just to weaken us. If the private sector falls, the AZA is going to fall. AP has enough fuel, like the tiger incident in San Fran, to begin the assault when the time is right. But they know they need to go after the weakest segment first....that is were we come in. We can roll over and point at each other and say, its those damn free handlers, or someone saying its those damn venomous keepers. There better be a stop to the us and them mentality.
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Samuel 'Chuck' Hurd
Professional Educator / Venomous Reptile Curator
www.ChuckHurd.com
423.580.7513 (txt capable)
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RE: Reckless endangerment of our hobby
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by ChuckHurd on March 11, 2008
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Dang Z, you are on the ball. You rang in as I was trying to type mine. =)
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Samuel 'Chuck' Hurd
Professional Educator / Venomous Reptile Curator
www.ChuckHurd.com
423.580.7513 (txt capable)
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RE: Reckless endangerment of our hobby
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by yoyoing on March 12, 2008
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Chuck,
You make total sense, and I hope your view becomes the popular "correct" answer when this issue opens up for opinion again in the future.
Historically, appeasement by sacrificing a fringe interest to a determined opponent does not work.
Jim
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