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Policing Our Hobby
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by EPARR1 on March 31, 2008
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I have heard members of this forum and others state that we need to police our hobby ourselves if we want to keep it around. I agree but that is not the easiest thing to do. A lot of the time it's a friend or someone we respect or look to for guidance/knowledge.
So how do you approach a situation like that.
I'm not mentioning names or calling anyone out but the person will know who I'm talking about and know I'm not into breaking the law whether I agree with it or not.
I was asked on one occasion to collect Timbers and ship to this guy. Well I live in Pa and we all know that is illegal.
On a second occasion I was asked to ship him a gator and I was willing but then I thought gators are common why would he need me to ship him one. So I asked if they were illegal to keep there. The answer was yes.
Now this is a person I look up to and is a respected member of the venomous community. Maybe he didn't know it was illegal to collect and ship Timbers Rattlers out of Pa but that is unlikely. He did know it was illegal to own gators and was just gonna let me ship it to him unknowingly. If I hadn't ask he wouldn't have said a word.
I think these are the situation people find themselves in that they just let it go or over look not wanting to get involved. I'm sure this will piss someone off but I also bet they will not post owning up to these actions. If they do sure there will be some great excuse.
I also thought maybe this person is not a bad guy and the exact opposite trying to help hobby by drawing out the people that would be willing to do what he asked then turning them in. I hope the last statement is the correct one but some how doubt it.
This has put me in an awkward situation since I respect the guy for his efforts and knowledge but I'm insulted he would think I would say oh yeah I'll get started in spring collecting timbers for you or yeah no problem I'll get that gator out tomorrow.
I know now what he thinks of me and I'm cutting ties.
What would you do?
The other reason for this post is just to let everyone know if your into something illegal stay the F__K away from me.
Thanks and Be safe
Eric G
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RE: Policing Our Hobby
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by formosa77 on March 31, 2008
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I think you did the right thing to ask questions. Just be straight forward to the person, because one they can come back on you and that a big fine. Questing just protects you much less keep thing from going down hill with venomous and and so on.
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RE: Policing Our Hobby
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by Cro on March 31, 2008
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Eric, I think you did the right thing in not dealing with this person.
Timber rattlesnakes have had a very rough time surviving over collecting, bounty hunting, and destruction of dens.
Some far-sighted states like PA and NY have choosen to protect Timber Rattlesnakes. I hope other states will do the same, and would even like to see them protected here in GA, where they are currently not protected.
However, I hope that these same states do make a distinction between the lowland morph (AKA Canebrake), which is not endangered in most places, and the highland morph (AKA Timber) which is very endangered in a huge part of its former range.
Anyway Eric, thanks for doing the right thing !
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Policing Our Hobby
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by Atrox788 on March 31, 2008
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Its funny you should mention the old ssp split in regards to state regulations. In VA "canebrakes" are offered protection where as "Timbers" are not. Due to dwindling habitat for both forms I wish they would follow new taxonomy and consider them both the same. However the state might decide that they dont need protection then since timbers are wide spread >.>
I agree, highland timbers are probably one of the most vulnerable reptile species in the states. I wish the federal government would take this American icon, one which was almost featured on the flag of the US (the dont tread on me flag proposed by ben Franklin I believe. Please correct me if I am wrong)and offer it protection to assure the species survival. Unfortunately the feds are hard pressed to afford anything herp protection. the only serpent granted federal status to my knowledge is the eastern indigo. I think there has been talk about giving it to the eastern Massy too which would be awesome and hopefully open the door to other serpents like La pines which are considered by some the rarest snakes in the US. and of cource timbers.
Anyway, sorry for hijacking the thread.
Take care,
J
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RE: Policing Our Hobby
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by MattHarris on March 31, 2008
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Eric,
You did the right thing.
As for listing, you touched on a key point...its vulnerability. Its not so much whether the populations are high or low, but how sensitive is the species to extirpation or collecting that dictates the need for protection(most importantly, habitat protection). Species such as timber rattlesnakes and hellbenders are high up there in vulnerability, although, their numbers may be locally stable.
There are other species Federally listed..e.g., the San Francisco Garter Snake(E).
MH
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RE: Policing Our Hobby
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by AquaHerp on March 31, 2008
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You did the right thing absolutely. Further, anyone who asks another to knowingly break a wildlife law is not "reputable, respected" or any of the above. They are exactly what's wrong with the herp keeping hobby as a whole, what drives it downward and highlights every statement from every AR activist out there.
As far as splitting the two horridus for federal protection....here is the issue. Federal protection only allows for that particular species, no intergrades. In the case of horridus vs. atricadautus what you would end up with is the timbers of the north being protected by the law; the canebrakes would not be if the bill did not allow for that. Given the numbers, I doubt that any bill would pass for "canebrakes" So, where does that leave the snakes from Southern Kentucky, Tennessee and so on that show definite traits of both? It leaves them unprotected, even on a State level as they would now be considered "intergrades” under the statute. Sadly, it's an all or none type of thing. Technically it's better to leave the horridus alone as a species, or to leave it managed at the State level and let local biologists determine the need for that State on protection status. Complex? Yes, but that's politics for ya!
DH
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RE: Policing Our Hobby
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by Cro on March 31, 2008
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The funny thing is that States and towns can take an Species like Canis familiaris, and outlaw pitbull morphs, but not poodle morphs. (would be far better to outlaw poodles, LOL ).
However, when it comes to a Species like Crotalus horridus, they do not seem to be able to seperate the different morphs, despite well defined habitat differences over much of the range. Of course, as Doug mentions, there are some areas where the distinction is not as clear or as well defined.
If we have to protect all Timber Rattlesnakes in Georgia, in order to protect the mountain form, then we should do that, and throw in Eastern Diamondbacked Rattlesnakes, Pygmy Rattlesnakes, and Coral Snakes also. This would finally put an end to the rattlesnake roundups.
And we should create a permit system so that folks who use them for educational or scientific uses will still be able to collect them. Then we should reverse the restrictive laws in Georgia on harmless snakes, so that kids can keep a cornsnake or kingsnake. In other words, GA should have a wildlife law that is modeled on Florida.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Policing Our Hobby
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by Buzztail1 on March 31, 2008
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Eric,
I, too, have been put in the position of condoning illegal activity from people who should know better.
Way too often, people try to sell me exotic venomous all the time, knowing full-well that it is illegal for me to have them.
Can you honestly imagine buying reptiles illegally from someone you don't really know while they are telling you "Come on, man, I won't tell anybody. It's a really good deal!"?
Stay away from these people. They are not your friends and do not deserve your respect. They are the reason that our "hobby" gets so much bad press.
As for "Canebrake vs Timber", I never wind up on the popular end of that argument. I often wonder how Virginia enforces their protection of "Canebrakes" but not "Timbers".
Oh well.
Just my own opinions,
Karl
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RE: Policing Our Hobby
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by soberwolf on March 31, 2008
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I had a girl asking me to send her some Sidewinders. I told her know for one because I am not sure of the laws in Az. on that. And, because I just do relocations and studies. Though I have seen alot of Crotalus Atrox lately on the highway. Probably 10 in the last week alone. Probabley make a kollon if I was into selling... Shelby
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