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"a different thread"
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by Cro on May 24, 2008
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Ok, Karl has requested a different thread.
Muff made an appeal, and lost his case. He burnt too many bridges the first time. End of that topic.
So, this thread is for anyone who wants to discuss proposed Legislation and how to deal with it.
And it is for anyone who wants to discuss feeding tigers while wearing a bikini !
While Z makes a good point in not waiting for USARK to make its appearance, the uniting of all of the herp interests is a very valid and very powerfull point. I have hopes USARK becoming an uniting force for reptile keepers across the country. Will it happen ? Only time will tell.......
Z, you point out how Trooper only defended those snakes that make up his livelihood, and did not do much to defend the venomous community. If that is the case, then there is a problem. He is a very well respected individual in the reptile community, however, since this was an anti-venomous reptile ban, he could have spoken up on that also. However, many others from the Virginia Reptile Community should have shown up at the hearings also. They should have outnumbered the soccer moms 5 to 1.
There are many disjointed groups of folks who are all reptile keepers. They care about their favorite animals, however, they do not care about other branches of reptile keepers. Far be it that a turtle freak would stand up and support venomous keepers. Same for a person who keeps only geckos. Until their part of the hobby is threatened, they are not likely to care.
That is why I think a uniting National Group like USARK could reach all parts of the reptile communtiy. If we are able to do that, we will have a lot of influence with the law makers. We need to make the turtle and lizard and non venomous folks all realize that their pets will also be targeted eventually.
First will be the scarry reptiles like venomous snakes and big pythons. But, those monitor lizards are scarry also, so lets outlaw them. And those geckos might excape and march to California and take over that state. And lets outlaw those harmless imported snakes also, as they might be confused with venomous snakes. It will go on, and on, and on.........
It is great that individuals from other states take the trouble to write letters as you suggested, however, just how much attention do you think that the Board of Commissioners of one County in Virginia payed to an EMail from someone in Florida or Georgia ? If someone had showed up in person, they would have made a much better impression.
If we had a working National Organization, we might actually accomplish things. But that is a very big "IF."
Just some things to ponder......
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: "a different thread"
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by tigers9 on May 24, 2008
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I posted this on different thread, you might have missed it, here is the video of Arlingotn, VA hearing and Mr. Walsh is the first speaker, so you can make up your own mind as to how he did or not defend venom people.:
click on the link
http://arlington.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=2&clip_id=623&meta_id=47032
and see player on your left, in the column
Z
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RE: "a different thread"
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by Cro on May 24, 2008
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Z, thanks for the link to that meeting. After hearing it, it is very apparent that Trooper Walsh did nothing to help the venomous community, and talked down venomous keeping.
I am really dissapointed that he only tried to save his own a-- in keeping large constrictors. As a well known reptile keeper, he could have had a much greater influence on that board.
So Terry, I will have to withdraw my previous comment that we should have been well represented by Trooper.
Listen to the tape that Z has posted. He sold us out. He did not represent the venomous community at all.
The only person at that meeting who took a stand toward venomous keeping was Nick.
Also, after the post by Al concerning Hank Molt, and Hank's crooked dealings with Peter, it is very apparent that the whole idea that snakes had excaped into a neighborhood is false and all constructed to hurt Peter, and this wound up hurting the whole County with an un-needed law.
There is still a chance that the next County in Virginia will not fall. That State Law that allows 5 of each venomous snake should take presidence over the local laws, just as the Florida Law took presidence over the local laws.
You Virginia folks need to get on the stick, and form an organization, and hire an attorney. Spikey, you need to set up VAARK. And Andrew, you need to do more than send EMails to some New York Reporter. Get on a value jet and attend the meetings. Or send an articulate USARK representative to the meetings. Preferably an attorney. That is what scares nit-whit political folks like those who were on the Arlington Board. The tape shows that 40 soccer moms can shout down science, and shout down facts, and shout down common sence............
This can be changed..............
Make it happen folks..............
I will continue to send EMails from out of State. However, that will not help a lot. You Local folks in Virginia need to fix this..................
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: "a different thread"
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by stopgetinpopped on May 24, 2008
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huh, Thats interesting, I didn't get any of that from watching the video.
Keeping in mind that each person was restricted to a 2 minute time frame.
He provided documents to support regulation not a ban. He pointed out that 'most' people shouldn't be keeping them (which we all know is true) He referenced the fact that legislation was already in place and questioned the need for more. Also, that additional research was needed by the board before deciding. Even offering himself up as a resource now and in the future. (which was later said that they would use him as such)
So guys, I think the words spoken above were a bit rash and poorly thought out. He was the only positive influence that represented venomous keepers in that meeting.
Noticing also, that the reference made comparing snakes to Guns was in very poor judgment for that atmosphere (as was later eluded to)
One other point is that it was obvious that the board had already made their own individual decisions on the subject prior to the meeting. The general publics idea as the lady pointed out "duh, why aren't they already illegal" is a strong one and far reaching...
They never even looked at the documents provided.
Those fights are much better fought before the fight starts...
T-
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RE: "a different thread"
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by Cro on May 25, 2008
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Terry, I agree that the fight was lost before the meeting was ever held. They had allready made up their minds on how they were going to vote. The meeting was just a formality.
That is probably why Peter was not there, he knew he would not be able to defend his position. He had allready been accused of being the witch that needed to be run out of town. It is amazing that those soccer moms did not bring pitch forks with them, LOL !
I agree that Nick should have never brought up Guns, LOL. At least he attended and made an effort. Defending venomous keeping as a God given right or freedom just does not work.
As far as Trooper, I guess I expected more from him. He was not very articulate in his arguments. I know he had only a couple of minutes, however, I think they would have let him talk on if he had captured the attention of the audience. The point is that this was a hearing about banning Venomous Snakes, and he protected his constrictors, and basically told them that most folks should not keep venomous snakes. While you and I know that is a true statement, it is not necessicarily what needs to be stated if the whole point of the meeting is to defend venomous reptile keeping.
However, Trooper was not there to defend venomous keeping, or represent the venomous community, so I really can not fault him for not doing that.
If there had been professional folks there from the venomous community to defend venomous keeping, and if they had presented their arguments in a good manner, it might have helped some. Would it have prevented the vote ? Hard to say. Perhaps the bill would have been tabled until more research could have been done. And perhaps the board would have read the material presented to them. Perhaps not. Like we have both stated, the fight was pretty much lost from the start.
Hopefully, the folks in Virginia will now get together and try to do something before more laws are passed. That way there could be folks at the meetings who are there to specifically represent the venomous community, who might have a better chance. But even better, those folks could work with the State Legislature, or Game and Fish, and try to create State wide reasonable reptile laws before this stuff comes to the individual Counties for a vote.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: "a different thread"
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by tigers9 on May 25, 2008
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I agree with Cro on this one.
I might be wrong, but seems like Mr. Walsh is well known/respected and has many friends on this forum, but to me personally, friendship means I can offer constructive criticism without risking the person/friend will get angry at me. Friendship based on a...kissing and brownnosing is not a real honest deep friendship.
Also, being respected breeder or scientist doesn’t necessarily make one a good public speaker. I might be personally good researching data, but I know my own limitations, I am horrible public speaker, I am too passionate and have horribly thick eastern European accent, that many not well traveled people have trouble understanding. I do speak in public if absolutely necessary, but am well aware that is my WEAK point.
Since I didn’t even know about Mr. Walsh until I saw the video and since I do not know who his friends here are, I hope my constructive criticism is fair and unbiased.
When making a speech to people who are NOT insiders on the issue (commissioners deal with many issues but not in depth), the speech needs to be like a press release, you need to catch the attention and clearly state your black or white point with the headline and 1st paragraph, as most people will not bother to read further.
Mr. Walsh stated at the beginning that he personally doesn’t believe that
<< “Most people should keep venomous snakes…’
“He actually hesitantly X off against this particular proposal”
“I am more concerned where this might lead…(commenting on his livelihood, breeding constrictors)”>>
These "straddling the fence” introductory comments make confuse the non insider listener to almost believing Walsh is supporting the ban.
Person who is there supporting the hobby would leave anything that can be used against us out (like saying that most people shouldn’t have them they have no experience, etc...) leave these comments for these forums here where readers know what you really mean by them.
Correct to the point, no straddling the fence, speech would be something like this:
-I am here opposing this ban
-I believe current/existing laws dealing with animals at large or animal abuse should be used to address this issue
-If necessary, I can help you design a permit registration system so the public and rescue services know where these animals are kept in case of an emergency
-bans will cause the hobby to go underground and create potentially more dangerous situation
-public is in more danger being killed or injured by native venomous snakes, or even household items like knives, bleach, cars or hot water
If you still have few seconds left, you can now say that even though there might be few irresponsible people, majority of keepers are good citizens who shouldn’t be punished for the actions of few who happen to have same specie or breed of animals. Again, ask them to NOT ban.
It might not have working in Arlington, but we need to keep trying.
Z
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RE: "a different thread"
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by tigers9 on May 25, 2008
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Actually this article quoted Welsh, what is wrong with keeping snakes in urban environment anyway??? These are indoor animals, not like lions or tigers that r outdoor animals.So zoos should only be out in the contry from now on?
Z
http://www.sungazette.net/articles/2008/05/19/arlington/news/nws86.txt
SNIP
One speaker who took a measured approach, looking at both sides was Louis Walsh, a retired Smithsonian Institution biologist and licensed snake breeder.
Walsh said he agreed that most people should not keep venomous snakes in an urban environment. But he voiced concern that the board's action could only be the first in a more wide-ranging ban on certain pets deemed dangerous.
“I'm more concerned about where this may lead,” he said.
SNIP
But Walsh said the county already had regulations in place against owners who allow snakes to get loose.
“It makes me wonder why you need to have new regulations,” he said.
SNIP
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RE: "a different thread"
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by stopgetinpopped on May 25, 2008
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It strikes me odd that when John Q public shows up using drama and overreaction to 'capture the attention' of the audience and media...we all slam, accuse, make fun of and ridicule them for it. Though I am gathering from you both that that behavior is exactly what you are calling for from 'our side'?
The more interesting thing is that you both are only really hearing his interest in Boas and Pythons and hesitantly apposing the ban on venomous. He made it plain and clear that regulation was more intelligent than a ban, even provided documents as such.
I have to say that his statements were very intelligently worded and intelligently received. IMO.
I don't agree with Z's approach to these situations as have been seen in past threads and I don't agree with Johns assessment of Troopers statements in this one.
I'm not sure if any of you have ever been in that situation before or not. I know I have and am currently dealing with it now here in Rapid City.
The best approach to those is to have many keepers show up that have a coordinated response that when one 2 minute set is done the next keeper continues with the next 2 minutes etc...
Drama begets Drama and that is not the way to get your point across in those situations...
hind site is always 20/20 but I don't feel that anything he said was selfserving or against venomous keepers. Just straight forward honesty.
Just my two cents...
T-
Just my two cents...
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RE: "a different thread"
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by tigers9 on May 25, 2008
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Terry, to answer your question, YES, I have over 10 years of experience of personally going to the hearings, from small city to the state level. This includes inviting certain officials (commissioners, animal control, news...) to my property to educate them about exotic animal ownership, explain caging ,capture equipment and simply show them by example and thru personal experience how not threatening these big cats are to strangers like them.
I have no experience attending hearings on federal level though.
I don’t see where Cro or me are advocating using drama, all we advocate is to be factual, composed and to the point, CLEAR.
Maybe one day you and me meet in person, drink Vodka and get rid of this tension between us, I truly have no desire to argue or fight with you, trust me.
Z
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RE: "a different thread"
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by Cro on May 25, 2008
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Terry, in my earlier post, I stated
" However, many others from the Virginia Reptile Community should have shown up at the hearings also. They should have outnumbered the soccer moms 5 to 1."
That supports what you just stated about having herp people inline one after the other, to each use their two minutes of time to continue the topic.
In this case, they did not show up.
Trooper was not there to support venomous keepers.
That is fine though, he at least supported keeping constrictors.
Folks who wanted to support venomous keeping should have been there, and they did not attend.
Now, the whole County has new regulations because the local herp keeping folks did not turn out. And the National organizations did not show up also.
Best Regards JohnZ
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