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RE: Unexpected Death
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by Cro on August 1, 2008
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The problem that I have with any type of viral cause, is the snakes all dropping dead on the same day.
You would think that they would have showed sickness, and died over a few days, not all at once.
The closeness of the death to the feeding sure makes me suspicious of a contaminated food of some sort.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Unexpected Death
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by theemojohnm on August 1, 2008
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I admit this is a bizzare occurance.
I honestly could not think of any natural cause which may have killed all of the animals simultaneously as it appears.
the first think I suspect when I hear of somthing like this is electrical shock, or chemical comtamination.
I am somwhat new to this forum, however... perhaps a link to a photo of the enclosure where these animals were kept may help?
I'm at a loss with this one. I know many people on here would know alot better than me if it were a virus or infection perhaps, but my common knowledge of such ailments leads me too be believe a virus was not the culprit.
Its hard to know sometimes when everything looks as though it should. How long have you been keeping these snakes again under the conditions in which they passed?
Forgive me if it was allready posted.
Anyways, what a bummer man.
Deeply sorry for the loss!
~John.
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RE: Unexpected Death
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by theemojohnm on August 1, 2008
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I have never had a problem with contaminated food, but this post is starting to scare me! LOL..
I buy all of my frozen rodents from gourmet rodent.. (petco unfortunetly) and havent had a problem EVER with contaminated food items, and I am thankful for that!
If you you raise your own rodents, the same factors apply. No possible contamination of the rodents being raised? I know a guy who raised his mice in his garage, and apparently the gas can which was planned too close to the bins that housed the mouse poisened his snakes without effecting the mice nearly as quickly!
~John.
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RE: Unexpected Death
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by FSB on August 2, 2008
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For the record, I wouldn't think a virus is the cause of this particular tragedy either (I was just digressing from the topic, as usual, wondering whether cottonmouths and possibly copperheads have some natural resistance to infections. Tell you the truth, this topic is a bit terrifying...).
Even paramyxovirus which typically shows no symptons until sudden convulsions and death occur, wouldn't be likely to kill all three snakes on the same day (though it could be possible), and if it were the culprit, it seems that the young snakes mentioned would also have contracted the virus, as well as any other crotalids in the collection, for sure. Were the three snakes housed together, in the same cage?
Re. feeder mice, I have long wondered if rodents kept on cedar shavings could have an adverse effect? Cedar shavings can certainly be toxic to keep snakes on, so it follows that rodents kept on them would accumulate the toxic oils in their fur and pass them directly into the snake. Of course, that doesn't explain why the other snakes were not affected, or why this hasn't happened until now.
I would recommend, if it isn't too late, to have the dead snakes necropsied by a good vet (and please post the results here!).
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RE: Unexpected Death
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by Cro on August 2, 2008
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Frederick, the idea about Cottonmouths possibly having a resistance to infection makes a lot of sense.
It is likely that the Alligators and Crocodillians that have that resistance developed it to deal with water borne bacteria, fungus, virus, and parasites.
It would not surprise me that Cottonmouths might have developed the same types of resistance. The ability that they have to eat rotten food sources sure could expose them to all kinds of bacteria, but they do not seem to have much problem with that.
As far as the mice issue, the oils in cedar shavings could accumulate in the mice fur, and be transferred to a snake.
What is even more dangerous though, is that many other types shavings that are often sold for flooring for horse stalls, kennel bedding, etc., have been sprayed heavily with insecticides and fungicides, and often fumigated before they are allowed to be transported from one State to another. I wonder what kind of shavings were being used for the mice, and what the source was ?
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Unexpected Death
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by Rob_Carmichael on August 2, 2008
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Maybe I'm missing something but has anyone suggested to do a necropsy on these dead snakes - obviously, too late now if it wasn't done but that's something I would have done immediately in this particular situation.
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RE: Unexpected Death
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by Cro on August 2, 2008
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Rob, while a necropsy would be usefull, and has been suggested, it is not always possible for individula keepers to accomplish this.
They usually do not have the ability or money to run chemical anylysis and blood tests. Perhaps some have a microscope and could look for parasites.
If you took the snakes to a vet for a necropsy, the cost would easily be more than the snakes are worth when they are alive. Most vets are greedy, and would charge hundreds of dollars for something like a necropsy, if they were even willing to do it.
Sure, there are a few exceptions, but those are very rare these days. Sending out tissue to check for chemical poisoning would take weeks for the results, and cost a small fortune.
The old country vet who actually cared for animals is about as common these days as teeth on a chicken.............
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Unexpected Death
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by theemojohnm on August 3, 2008
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I actually would also like to throw in my "two cents" in regards to the cottonmouths apparent resistance to infection.
I have never really thought about it much until Johns post sugesting this may be due to constant exposure to at least a SEMI aquatic habitat.
Although not venomous related, one of my favorite species native to my state has got to be Nerodia s. sipedon, the Northern Watersnake. All captive specimens I have of various Nerodia species all are very hardy captives even as wild caught specimens.
Although they do present specific needs...
There is a tendency for them to develope skin blisters and scale shedding if kept too wet or in unclean conditions, but unlike garter snakes that often get this condition aswell, nerodia does not seem NEARLY as affected by it than other snakes.
This only relates to a captive setting though (as they have a tendency to spill their water as soon as you re-fill their bowl). All snakes have acess to ground that is at least 90% of the time pretty much whenever they want it in the wild.
However, it does seem that, in an aquatic environment, parasites, skin conditions, fungus, and infection are all more likely than say a desert-dwelling snake.
I have noticed even with small injuries that turtles, cottons, and alot of the non-ven water snakes are not nearly as suseptable to infection as others under the same condition. I just guess I never really put much thought into it until Johns post regarding aqautic species.
~John.
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RE: Unexpected Death
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by toddg on August 4, 2008
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Is anyone angry with you? Does anyone else have access to your animals? It sounds likely that the cause of death was some type of toxin but I,m wondering if someone, intentionally or otherwise, poisoned your snakes.
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RE: Unexpected Death
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by Cro on August 4, 2008
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Virgil, what kind of shavings were you keeping the mice on ?
What was the source of the shavings ?
Best Regards John Z
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