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Canebrake/timber venom
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by spanky on January 22, 2003
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I have had many tell me that the canebrake venom is a lot stronger than the timber. but I have been bite by both and the bites to me are the same. and the snakes are close to the same. is thare any differents in the venom.? Thanks.
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RE: Canebrake/timber venom
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by PIGMAN on January 22, 2003
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Canebreaks are usually more toxic with more nerotoxins than the timbers. It would be hard to compare one bite to another to what is worse with so many varibles with each bite. Horridus that range from Southeast NC inland to Columbia SC to down around Savannah GA tend to be the most toxic canebreaks. Many people have died or suffered through severe bites from canebreaks that live within that range.
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RE: Canebrake/timber venom
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by ZX11 on January 23, 2003
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I have been gnawed on by both and, like yourself, did not notice any difference. But, as stated, bites can vary from individial specimens of the same species and same locale. As for exact composition of each, I do not beleive anyone can confirm anything entirely conclusive due to variance of food items and water types available in different reigons. The snake that show a higher concentraton of lethal enzymes may be drinking waters of a more industrialized society. Also, same as glycol builds in our systems, certain products may build in the systems of snakes and their foods, thus creating a more toxic venom.You have provided something that should warrant further investigation. Are WE creating more toxic venoms??
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RE: Canebrake/timber venom
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by Snakeman1982 on January 23, 2003
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Because of the numerous variations that can occur from a bite this is a little hard to measure. If both snakes bit you, maybe only one of them injected venom while the other performed a dry bite. Also it is doubtful that they both injected the exact amount of venom. Not to mention the slight venom toxicity differences in separate populations.
You need to milk both snakes of study. Get exactly the same amount of venom from an Eppendorf pipette, place the venom in a syringe, and then inject it into you. Let us know which one is worse. Any volunteers, lol? Just joking.
I am pretty sure the Canebrake is more dangerous. I believe I was reading Carl Ernst's book "Venomous Reptiles of North America" last semester when I read that the timber rattlesnakes venom is the least likely to kill you, drop per drop, of any other rattlesnake. I was shocked since I had seen a lot of bad and graphic photos from timber bites. I could be wrongful in this info though. I would try to read a bit of Dr. William S. Brown if I were you guys since he is probably the leading authority on them. Maybe Dr. Steve Beaupre from University of Arkansas though too, since he also studies them.
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RE: Canebrake/timber venom
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by PIGMAN on January 24, 2003
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Good examples of canebreaks that are not more toxic than timbers are the ones that live in northeast GA north coastal NC and lower piedmont and inland SC and the ones found in Alabama and Louisana etc. do not possess the neurotoxins in the venom such as the ones that I previously mentioned in my last post. but since the size of a canebreak is larger than timbers there could be more of a danger in the volume of the venom that could be deliverd. I have also heard the ones from North West Fl were somewhat neurotoxic but I do not know, I have'nt let one bite me. However I have been studying populations of C. horridus atricaudatus in Uwharrie mountains or hills for years and one population is comparitively different than the ones found just a few miles from there. Those individuals are smaller, all of them look old when they are young and they all look rough and unhealthy but they are in good health also I discovered in this population a difference in venom color. Those individuals have rusty brown or orangish colored venom while the rest in the surrounding hills have the light yellow or clear venom and physically they look different . I am not a toxocologist so I have no idea what the difference is with the color but there definatly is a difference also those with the darker venom tend to be more aggressive. The hababit that these snakes lives in is very poor for supporting rattlers and it may be an evolved venom for harsh environmental reasons. While the larger individuals that live just a few miles away have a very diverse and healthy type ecosystem. hope this helps
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RE: Canebrake/timber venom
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by BGF on January 25, 2003
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In reponse to the post by ZX11, food or water that it is ingesting is not going to have any effect upon the venom profile... ie different drinking water will not result in a different concentration of enzymes. Venom variation is driven by random drift, accelerated molecular evolution of the toxins and selection due to shifts in prey.
Cheers
BGF
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RE: Canebrake/timber venom
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by ZX11 on January 25, 2003
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Obviously, I'm not too involved with venom and stand corrected, but it was just a thought. If you would, please give more detail of which you were referring. I though of getting more involved with the venom but theres too much I don't understand. I don't even know where too get such precise info or what to do with if I had it. Thanks.
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RE: Canebrake/timber venom
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by BGF on January 27, 2003
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Hi mate,
No shame about being wrong... I am frequently! ;-) Venom changes include through selection for a different prey item (ie black mambas - rodents, green mambas - birds). The toxins may be reflective of this in being more potent for one vs. the other. Subtle random changes can give a slight evolutionary edge that over times can result in profound differences. This is of course no different than another sort of adaptive evolution (i.e. slightly better night vision over time could select for potent nocturnal predatory behaviour). With venoms though, a bit more randomness is allowed since there are a multiple of genes that undergo frequent duplication and each duplicate evolves completely independently (including undergoing further duplication events). Over time, this leads to a dizzying diversity in the toxins. Profound changes can occur even between different populations of the same animal.
If you have further questions, please feel free to ask. Both WW and I are quite happy to help out and if we don't know we can at least point the right direction to search for the answer.
All the best
BGF
http://www.venomdoc.com
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RE: Canebrake/timber venom
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by vipersniper on February 21, 2004
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I live in timber rattler territory in southeast Iowa. I've recently read that some herpetologists now think there is no distinction between canebrake and timber rattlesnakes and feel they are one and the same species. Has anyone else read this?
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