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RE: Python Kills Zoo Keeper
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by Rob_Carmichael on August 28, 2008
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It sounds like very few folks who have posted on this thread have ever dealt with a truly pissed off and "full constriction mode" constrictor. It doesn't matter if we're talking about a retic, 'conda, burm, rock, scrub. Yes, 99.9% of the time a 10' constrictor should pose no problems, even in a case like this, however, a 10' python (or boa) who may think it's constricting prey (ie. human's neck...perhaps some scent material?), can put pressure that most of you apparently are not aware of. No digs on anyone here, but I do sense some machoism - it doesn't matter if you are a body builder, ultimate fighter, etc, these snakes can exert pressure that is designed to subdue prey and should a worse case scenario happen, everyone should know exactly what to do. These snakes are designed to strike, hold, constrict and kill prey as quickly as possible to prevent injury to itself. The amount of pressure exerted, even from a 10' constrictor is immense and as I said before, can literally knock someone out in a millisecond if it hits the right spot. That doesn't mean we should fear working with large constrictors, not in the least, but it does show that we all need to take certain precautions (mostly common sense such as letting big constrictors wrap around your neck) when working with them.
Obviously, we're all jumping the gun on this story as very little info has come out. Only time will tell but I still feel horrible this person's family.
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RE: Python Kills Zoo Keeper
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by Crotalusssp on August 28, 2008
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Rob, Thank you for stating exactly what I was thinking. It was mostly you and I giving these constrictors their due respect. I did not want to get into some typing argument with any one so I chose to remain silent. I stand by everything I posted before. A 10' constrictor that gets the upper hand, for whatever reason, is a dangerous animal. Not given due respect or handled by an inexperienced individual, dangerous situations can occur. Being over confident can lead to carelessness and we can all agree that there is no place for that when dealing with potentially dangerous animals. Take care, use your head.
PS--I in no way am posting this to start a typing argument or "flame" as some people call it.
Charles
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RE: Python Kills Zoo Keeper
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by Cro on August 28, 2008
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Charles and Rob both make very good points.
Any large constrictor over 8 feet in length should be considered dangerous, and and potentially deadly. Yes, 8 feet is an arbitrary size, however this takes into account the potential smaller stature of younger keepers.
Snakes that size and larger, should be worked with a helper available, and a squirt bottle of alcahol on hand, just in case the snake latches onto someone.
Sure there are some larger snake that can be worked alone, however, it is just not safe to do so.
I am sure that the person who took the 9 foot python out by himself, and was killed by it, thought it was safe to do so. It would not surprise me if the snake was considered "tame" and perhaps even a snake that was used in public education on a regular basis.
At reptile shows, we often see the folks with the puppy dog tame, 16 foot, 100 lb, pythons that are being used for folks who want to pose for photos. Most often those snakes are draped around someone's neck, as that is the easiest way for them to support a snake that heavy.
I often wonder what might happen of someone were to pet the live rabbits that were for sale down the asile, then walk over to pet the "harmless" python.
Something like rabbit smell could trigger a feeding response that would at the least leave someone with a nasty bite wound.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Python Kills Zoo Keeper
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by toddg on August 29, 2008
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Simple question, please don't anybody take this the wrong way! Do any of you keep or work with large constrictors on a regular basis? Incidentally, I use the weight of animal, rather than length, as the decing factor in determing if I need help in dealing with a constrictor.
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RE: Python Kills Zoo Keeper
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by Cro on August 29, 2008
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Todd, for many years I worked with and kept large constrictors. Many of these snakes were in the 14 to 19 foot range, and weighed from 40 lbs to over 150 lbs.
Many factors come into play here. You are right about the weight of a snake also being a factor besides length. Also, the muscle tone of the snake is very important, as is the individual temperment of the snake.
We also have to take into account the physical size of reptile keepers. They could be women or teens who only weight 100 lbs, or they could be adult males who weight 250 lbs. That is why an arbitrary rule is needed, and I think 8 feet or below is a good place to set the bar. That should keep everyone safe.
Most of the deaths by caused by large constrictors did not involve the heaviest snakes, or the longest. Most of the humans who have been killed by large constrictors have been keepers in their mid-twenties, and the snakes involved were from 9 to 14 feet long.
At that size, a python can be in it's prime as far as speed, strength, and dangerousness. This is because the snake has a diameter that will allow it to get a complete loop around a person's neck. Larger pythons can't do this as easily, as there is not room, and part of the coil will go around the person's sholders or face. Smaller pythons can wrap around someone's neck two times, however, lack the stringth to do much damage. Also, in situations like this, the person has often been bitten by the python, and is probably bleeding and in a lot of pain, with a python that will not let go from the bite. That will cause the person to panic, and concentrate on trying to get the python to release the bite, and will often allow the snake an opportunity to get a coil around the persons neck.
I once had a very strong, very angry, 14 foot African Rock Python, in the 45 pound range, manage to get a complete coil around my neck and begin constricting. It was a very close call, and I almost passed out, and almost had to kill the snake by hand to get it loose.
The unique thing it about a human neck is that the carotid arterys, which supply the brain with oxygenated blood, are close to the surface. It only takes a few seconds of compression to starve a brain from oxygen and cause a person to black out. If a python constricts the neck that way until someone blacks out, and then continues to constrict, it can easily kill a person.
That can happen even if you are a large, strong, adult male. However, you will probably never appreciate this potential danger from a python of that size, until it actually happens to you. Then, if you survive, perhaps you will understand.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Python Kills Zoo Keeper
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by constrictorfreak on August 29, 2008
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"but I do sense some machoism" , no machoism just opinions . Is that not what we are here to give ? , Advice and opinion ?
Too often we hear of constrictor attacks , but do we ever really get the full story ? No! We may get the full complete story if a dog attacks someone , and you know what , Dogs are never put " under the light " . Please note : I have nothing against dogs , just using a example . I beleive that if we got the full complete story on the subject things could be expressed clearly . So if everyone could , try to find more info on the subject , and then lets talk further on the subject .
Thanks
stacy
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RE: Python Kills Zoo Keeper
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by Cro on August 29, 2008
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Stacy, I do not think "machoism" is the problem, so much as it is lack of consideration of the "mechanics" and "potential" involved, concerning constriction by pythons of a certain length, weight, and temperment.
The statistics proove that more people have been killed by 9 to 14 foot pythons than any other size constrictor.
Over the last 40 years, I have read of about 12 to 15 deaths to keepers from pythons in that size range. All were remarkably similar. Almost all involved keepers working by themselves, with 9 to 14 foot pythons. Almost all involved healthy 20 something year old males. Almost all involved a bite from the snake.
These could have been due to feeding reflex, or taking the snakes out of the cage while cleaning.
Also, there is the factor of maturity. Many pythons are raised from young, and are fairly easy to work with up to about 9 feet in length. Around that size, the reach sexual maturity, and often have a very strong change in temperment. That should always be considered as a factor.
While your chances of getting struck by lightning are probably much greater, getting killed by a pet python is a possibility, and does happen to some unlucky folks every couple of years. And it then hits the papers, and gives ammunition to the folks who want to outlaw keeping of large constrictors.
I have also read about a few deaths from wild pythons, in their native countries, that were larger in size. In those cases, the average age of person killed seems to be 12 to 14 year old boys, which makes me think that the kid might have stopped to look at, or mess with, the large snake, or was just walking along a game trail, and got caught off guard. In those cases, the python probably considered the person as a food item, as the person was often swallowed, or the snake made an attempt to swallow the person. The large round head, and sholder width seems to be a bit of a problem for some snake in swallowing humans.
Anyway, consider the "mechanics" potential of a python of a certain size, weight, and stringth range, when working with large constrictors.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Python Kills Zoo Keeper
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by toddg on August 29, 2008
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Sorry John I gotta ask, What the hell were you doing with a 14 ft. rock python around your neck?
Seriously though, in my original post, I said I found it "DIFF-I-CULT to fathom" not impossible. Obviously, since fatalities do occur with relatively young constrictors, it is well within the relm of possibilities for tragic mishaps to occur.
I curently have two constricters that I'd consider possibly life threataning. they range from 70 to 80 lbs. One of wich IS a rock python and when I have to deal with him, I insist on having another experienced handler in the room. However, when he was a mere 10 ft.(roughly 30lbs.), I find it difficult to imagine any situation that could have turned deadly. And yes, being a rock python, he is about as pissy as snakes get.
Now please excuse me but"Macho Man" from the Village People is playing on the radio, I have to go "show off" with one of my snakes!
Have a great weekend!
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RE: Python Kills Zoo Keeper
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by Cro on August 29, 2008
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Todd, the rock python did not start out around my neck, he wound up there. I was removing him from the cage with a hook a couple of feet from his head, and was lifting his mid body with my other hand. I had used this same technique with him hundreds of times before this without a problem.
As I cleared the cage door with him, on my way to the transfer box, he managed to move forward through the hook, swing back, and latch onto my arm, and then trow a couple of coils around the arm. This left about 10 feet of python whipping all over the place. As I tried to free myself from the bite, tying up both of my hands, he managed to loop his tail up over my sholder, and quickly after that, get a mid body loop around my neck.
That python was one of the most physically strong pythons I have ever worked with, and had a temper to match. The long and short of it, is that I should have not been working with him by myself, late at night, and tired, after putting in a full day of work at the Atlanta Zoo. Back then, we did not know about having alcahol in a squirt bottle, so kept a ballpeen hammer in my back pocket anytime I worked with that snake after that.
Fortunatly, I sold the pair of big African Pythons to a Zoo soon after that, and did not have to worry about them anymore. The pair got really large, and remained on public display for many, many years.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Python Kills Zoo Keeper
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by 23bms on August 29, 2008
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I think Rob hit the bulls eye.
"...These snakes are designed to strike, hold, constrict and kill..."
Very short. Very to the point.
Never underestimate your animal, whether it's a boa or a cobra or anything in between or beyond. It is so easy to be lulled into complacency.
"I've done this a thousand times."
Right.
All it takes is one moment of ... inattention? Distraction? Over confidence?
Welcome to your new status as a statistic.
jrb
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