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RE: Discovery "I was Bitten"
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by Cro on September 1, 2008
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Charles, there are 15 different species of the Atractaspis species recognized.
They go by many names, including burrowing vipers, mole vipers, stiletto snakes, burrowing asps, and side stabbing snakes.
The one I worked with at Atlanta Zoo, we just called a Mole Viper. It was a very interesting snake. Not really pretty enough, and too secretive for public display, however, it was fun to watch it feed.
The way it hooked back with the fangs was pretty cool.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Discovery "I was Bitten"
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by Crotalusssp on September 2, 2008
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John, I am sorry you did not get to see the "Bitten" show. They has some very good video of them feeding and attacking prey items. I was familiar with the side-ways biting and the snake in general, but the many common names where confusing. That is at least one good vote for the muddy waters of taxonomy. I was not aware that there was 15 recognized species. Thanks for that bit of information.
Charles
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RE: Discovery "I was Bitten"
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by donaldschultz on September 3, 2008
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there are a few stilettos, probably a few more than 15. I have been working with A.bibronii for 15 years or so and I am certain there are 2 or even 3 good species in there.
We used A.bibronii for the feeding sequence (smaller animals) ... and the larger and scarier A.fallax (previously A.m.fallax) for the strike sequences.
tough snakes to work with, and even experts get bitten, the great Donald Broadley has been bitten twice by them!
d
www.donaldschultz.com
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RE: Discovery "I was Bitten"
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by Cro on September 3, 2008
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Donald, If we also include Sub-Species, we will wind up with at least thirty something Atractaspis.
For instance, Atractaspis boulengeri is divided into 5 Sub-Species. And Atractaspis irregularus has 4 Sub-Species.
There is a list of the 15 Species at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atractaspis
There is a list of the Species and Sub-Species at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atractaspidid_species_and_subspecies
The ITIS database is often several years out of date, and changes as new research is published and peer reviewed. While it is considered the "standard" reference, the long delay in keeping it updated, as new research is published, really annoies me at times.
At the moment, I do not see any subs of A. bibronii, however, it would not suprise me if there were some out there.
Apparently, the work on this large group of snakes continues by Roy McDiarmid, John Campbell, and S. Spawls, and B.Branch. It would not surprise me it it takes 10 more years for them to sort them all out.
On a seperate matter, I notice you using the Hex Armor Gloves in several photos on your web site. I have a pair of those also, and planned on testing them with various venomous snakes, by placing a latex glove with gelled ballistic gelatin inside of them, and letting the snakes bite or chew on the gloves, then checking the latex glove, to see if it were punctured. The idea was that the ballistic gelatin would provide a density similar to human skin.
However, I found that I could easily pierce the gloves with a small guage hypodermic syrynge needle, so lost some confidence in them, and have not tested them with actual snakes yet. I do wear them sometimes when working with snakes, however, after the needle incident, I do not trust them. Just as I do not trust the Turtle Skin Gloves, as they were also easily pierced by the same needle.
So, my question for you, is what is your conclusion about the "snake proofness" of the Hex Armor Gloves. From the photos, it looks like you might have been wearing them when snakes bit. Did any of the snake bites make it through the gloves ?
I still intend to set up the test with the latex gloves filled with ballistic gellatin, then inserted insideo of the snake proof gloves, and try it on a number of "snake proof" or "puncture resistant" gloves.
Donald, it would be great to hear your opinion on these gloves, based on your first hand use of them with venomous snakes. Were the 3 layers of material good enough to stop fang punctures from strikes ? Were snakes allowed to "chew" in a way that might allow them to displace the layers of fabric, and get a fang through ? I am sure that when I pierced them fairly easily with the small guage insulin needle, that I might have been wiggling the needle a bit, and shifting the layers of fabric a bit. I can see them stopping a single direct strike from a rattlesnake, far better than the bite and chew of a cobra, which could displace the fabric layers, and allow a fang to get through. If you can, please comment on your use of them.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Discovery "I was Bitten"
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by donaldschultz on September 3, 2008
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Cro,
The wikipedia table is wrong, with a few species missing. There are way more species than 15, i was trying to be diplomatic
As for the gloves, been testing them for about a year in 10 countries with over 40 species of venomous snakes. I will say this, nothing has got through them. That being said, they ARE NOT DESIGNED for what i am using them for. I was trying to find the breaking point, and as of now, there is not snake that has gone through them
I think that they should never be used in the manner i have used them, but i am directly involved with Midwest and Hexarmor in developing them for the reptile industry. more pics can be seen here www.mfezi.com/tongs.html
As of this week, I caught a 7 foot taipan in Cairns, and the gloves were tested and worked on that animal as well.
d
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RE: Discovery "I was Bitten"
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by Cro on September 3, 2008
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Donald, thanks for the reply. I kind of figgured the table was outdated, as most of the ITIS database is.
The time lag is often several years before it matches new research. Now days, many of what were once considered Sub-Species are being elevated by WW and others to Species status.
The Atractaspis is a large, and complex group of rarly studied animals, and will take a while to sort out. The interesting thing, is that many folks think that there is only one mole viper from Africa, and have no idea just how diverse a group of snakes they are.
We have run into the same thing concerning the tropical rattlesnakes lately. It seems that the ITIS database has not been updated to include the work of WW and others for several years. When you go to the WW site, you will see much research that has not made it to the ITIS data base yet.
Donald, do not worry about being "diplomatic" here though. We are all about Education, and new information is always welcome ! When you have updated information, Share It !
We deal in a complex, ever changing science, and new research comes out all the time. Sharing that information is very important. I am happy to learn that there are more than 15 species of Atractaspis out there, and look forward to seeing the research as to just what they are. You will not hurt anyones feelings if you post information that is more up to date ! It just helps keep everyone here informed !
Also, thanks for the links to the gloves. When I first brought them to attention here a couple of years ago, I kind of figgured that they might be something special. I have since seen folks at Glades using them on TV specials, and now can see how you have used them. They should prove to be a more flexable product than the gloves that MidWest offered in the past, and were tested by Greig Fry. Those were rather large, awkward gloves. I still intend to conduct my own research on them with the metheod that I described in the previous post.
I am still curious though. Although the gloves passed the test with live snakes, have you tried to work an narrow guage insulin needle through them ??? It will pass through rather easily. However, the needle is one diameter the whole length, and the snakes fangs start out quite sharp, but taper to a much wider size. Perhaps that is the difference. But I would be curious of the results that you obtain when doing a needle test. It is still a bit scarry as to how easily a small guage needle will penetrate the gloves out there.
It is very good though to know that the gloves survived the "chewing" of cobras. That was my concern as to the safety, as I had concerns that the fangs of a chewing snake would displace the fabric layers, and eventually work through, just as the insulin needle did.
Keep us informed here as to further research. Considering that many private venomous keepers get bitten on the hands and forearms, a glove that could be worn while working with venomous snakes could be a real advance to safety when keeping these snakes.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Discovery "I was Bitten"
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by donaldschultz on September 4, 2008
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http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e14/donalds4/VenomExtraction024.jpg
A.bibronii venom yield
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e14/donalds4/VenomExtraction032.jpg
A.fallax glands.
By the way, I have posted this before, and I am asking again, any bite victims with photos/video, contact me and we can talk about doing the show.
d
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